It’s been a while since I’ve posted here on TWSS, so I might as well stir up a little con-tro-ver-sy.

I was listening to episode 143 of “The Final Table” podcast originating from KFNS 590 radio in St. Louis, Missouri.

http://dennisphillipspoker.blogspot.com/

After a lengthy and entertaining discussion of Dennis Phillip’s burst appendix – which he managed to stave off while winning the WSOP Circuit Event in Hammond, Indiana (Congratulations Dennis!) – Paul Harris welcomed WSOP Executive Director Ty Stewart on to the program to discuss the upcoming November Nine final table and how ESPN (and Caesar’s) plan to cover the event.

Toward the end of the broadcast, Paul Harris served up a pretty provocative question for Mr. Stewart. After some discussion about what Caesar’s Entertainment and ESPN are doing to boost the ratings and make the November Nine more “entertaining” for casual viewers, Paul pointed out the obvious: That the best thing that could happen to the WSOP would be for a lady player to not only make the final table but actually win it! Paul pointed out that having Main Event fields with three or four percent of the field comprising women was not going to cut it. He then asked Mr. Stewart a direct question: What are Caesar’s and the WSOP doing to increase female participation in the Main Event? You can judge for yourself Mr. Stewart’s response, but I got the impression he was hit with a question he wasn’t expecting.

So what can Caesar’s and the WSOP do? I suppose this will be a bit controversial, but the answer (to me) is obvious. You increase the incentives, (i.e. the M-O-N-E-Y), offered to the lady who finishes highest in the Main Event. There are a number of ways to go about this, but I would think, if not Caesar’s themselves, then a consortium consisting of Caesar’s, ESPN, Jack Link’s Beef Jerky - and possibly a new sponsor that appeals more to women - should offer a $5,000,000.00 “bonus” to any lady player who makes the November Nine final table. OK, maybe $5,000,000.00 is a bit excessive, but two-to-four million for making the final table sounds about right. (Of course, this “Last Woman Standing” bonus would be in addition to whatever amount she manages to win outright.) Even if the highest finishing woman doesn’t make the November Nine, she should pull down a cool $1,000,000.00 bonus – provided she finishes in the Top 100 or better – and maybe an extra $250,000.00 if she finishes in the Top 50 or the Top 25. (The idea is that the closer a lady player gets to the November Nine, the higher the incentive bonus should be.) In the event that the highest finishing lady makes history by actually winning the whole thing, bump that “bonus” up to a cool $5,000,000.00 – in addition to the first place prize money for winning the ME outright.

I suppose this idea won’t go over well with a lot of male players – like maybe Shaun Deeb – but think about this: What has Danica Patrick done for Indy car racing – other than making tons of money for her sponsors and ESPN – and really raising the profile of women in motorsports? Here’s something else to think about … If Caesar’s can get female participation up to 15 or 20 percent of the field, that greatly increases the odds that a lady player might go all the way. Can you visualize the Moshman’s better half (or Pam Brunson along with her father) sitting down to chat with David Letterman? If a couple of lady players just happen to make the November Nine, think of all the betting action the bookies over in the UK will take from male chauvinists betting against the gals? (I still recall how crazy this country went back in 1973 when Bobby Riggs tangled with Billie Jean King in the Astrodome. Just ask Vince Van Patten about that one.)

There have to be sponsors that would be interested in being associated with the highest finishing lady in the Main Event of the WSOP. Think about this as well. There was a time when women players were not encouraged to participate in professional golf and professional tennis. Now we have the LPGA and the equivalent organization for lady tennis players. If “guy” poker players are really smart, they’ll recognize that this is actually a good idea. Think about this: How much larger will the final table prize pool be if the field is expanded by, oh say, an extra two-thousand lady players?

Some folks think women aren’t as competitive as men and a woman will never win the Main Event. I don’t agree. Get the money (and the incentives) up there so that the ladies are playing for “real” money and guys will discover just how cutthroat and “competitive” women can be. Erica, Claudia, and Angela certainly proved that they can play with the big boys.

I’m getting on up in years now, but I certainly hope I live to see the day that a lady player wins the Main Event.

Former DJ

Even though a promotion like that would be massively +EV for women that go deep in the Main Event, I don't know if that's the right way to structure it to get what you want. I would be one of the first to start buying more pieces of mares into the Main Event for a piece of that promotion, but I don't know how efficient it would be. Would a $1 million cash prize for the last woman standing encourage 100 women to register? You may be better off buying 100 women straight into the event.

There are a lot more monetary and promotional benefits for a successful female poker player - at least the guys on this forum always seem to complain about it. (but ignore the harassment and lack of credit women deal with) There are more sponsorships and endorsements, media coverage, and staking opportunities. The last few women in the Main Event get a substantial amount of coverage. It's direct value isn't quite a million dollars, but it's pretty close if you combine them all and include sponsorships gained thereafter.

Is it not spelled out clearly enough that there is a large pile of money for women that are good at poker and play big, televised events? Maybe. It's a little weird how the demand for professional poker playing women hasn't caught up to the supply provided by the sites/media/sponsors.

There's also the problem that artificially creating a massive bubble for women to play really weak-tight on TV(even if it were +EV) would upset me. I can't articulate why.

Caesars will never give up money in this manner. It would be fantastic and I would be super jealous but they'll never do it. If they could get a "sponsor" to put up $5m or even $1m it'd go straight into their pockets.

Yeah, I could see some sort of sponsor incentive (a years/lifetime supply of whatever), but I don't see that kind of monetary incentive being considered any time soon.

Just wait until I play the ME. I'm going to ship it, I tells ya. SHIPIT!

Yes, but then I wake up from dreaming.

Interesting post, and ty for the time and effort you put into it. Most of the women who have the best shot of doing very well in the Main are the ones already playing it-- the ones that the prize pool is enough of an incentive.

Post black Friday, while deep-run rewards are still there, they have been deeply discounted without the allure of site sponsorships. Of course if we could get female %s up a lot, then the chance of a deeper female run would increase.

I think that a bonus amount would serve, as Professor Ben Points out, more to encourage male players staking more women in the event. I think that with this system, poker-playing husbands would be more inclined to buy in their wives, and then both play. So that would increase the absolute number of female entrants but possibly not the percent as dramatically.

To be perfectly honest, I would find the amounts added for women to be rather condescending, as if we are such inferior players that we're given a head start. That being said, I'm a poker player to the core (and as someone who once almost secured a chop for more than 1st place in a Daily) I would be happy to take any extra money.

Katie:

I wasn't intending to be condescending to women or women poker players, but I see your point. The reason I posted in the first place is because Paul Harris's question to Ty Stewart struck a chord. There's something that just doesn't seem "right" about an open competition where over 95 percent of the participants are men. (I would love to see the numbers closer to 50-50.)

I just have this feeling that there's got to be a way to significantly increase female participation in the Main Event. The most obvious way would be for a lady player to actually win the ME. As another poster pointed out, that would launch a "Moneymaker effect" for women in poker, but short of that there must be some way to increase the proportion of women in the Main Event.

Another crazy idea I had along these lines would be a poker playing billionairre - like Donald Trump, Andy Beal, or even Bill Gates - coming out with an open offer stating that he'll pay $10,000,000.00 (TEN MILLION) to the first lady who wins the Main Event. Just think how many lady poker players would be flooding into Trump's Taj Mahal if "The Donald" made an offer like that!

Former DJ

I know that this wasn't your intention, and I wasn't at all offended. I think your ideas ITT are very interesting.

I'm completely down if they ever incorporate something like this, if some random person wants to stake me to play. They can have the entire bonus, even!

This kind of gets into the whole "should there be women's only events or shouldn't there" arena. Incentives to increase the participation of women in poker have positives and negatives. A huge monetary bonus would be too far into the negative, IMO, since it does smack of an artificial "first place" prize for the woman who lasts longest, as if they don't really stand a chance of REALLY winning, so we'll have a separate prize just for her.

Not that I think that's what you meant, OP, but I think such an idea does potentially have some condescending overtones.

Somewhat interesting anecdote: I play my high buyin events staked and have it written in my contract that any bonuses/sponsorships I get from a deep run are all mine. Here's hoping that one day that clause is actually worth something lol.

Katie:

I like to think like Steve Jobs - which means "unconventional" and believing that the "impossible" is possible. Along those lines, here's another crazy idea.

I read Doyle Brunson's autobiography "The Godfather of Poker". In his book, Doyle relates the story, (more fully told by Michael Craig in his classic book "The Professor, The Banker, and the Suicide King"), involving the big money showdown between Texas billionairre (and poker player) Andy Beal and the syndicate of pros, led by Doyle, that became known as "The Corporation". In the banking world, Andy Beal is known for being a bit like Steve Jobs - he's bold and he's not afraid of playing high.

If the goal is to increase female participation in the WSOP, here's one way to do it. My understanding is that Mr. Beal's bank is located in Texas - specifically in the Dallas area. So Mr. Beal puts out a print ad (or whatever) inviting women to open checking or savings accounts with his bank agreeing to maintain a minimum balance - like say $10,000.00, $5,000.00 or $1,000.00. Mr. Beal then "sweetens" the deal by promising his new (lady) customers that if one of them just happens to enter (and win) the WSOP Main Event, that lady will receive a $10,000,000.00 "bonus" payment for being the first woman to win the WSOP Main Event - and also having the incredible wisdom of being a Beal Bank customer. I would think a promotion like that should get Mr. Beal ... what ... maybe ten or twenty thousand new depositors?

There are all kind of ways something like this could work. It just requires a little imagination.

Former DJ

Dear Former DJ:

I'm all in favor of your idea for a $1,000,000.00 bonus for the first lady poker player who makes the WSOP Main Event final table - just as long as this "bonus award" is retroactive back to 1995.

Barbara Enright*

After mulling over all these comments and sleeping on it overnight, I got to thinking of other "complications" that might result from instituting a high money incentive program to encourage greater female participation in the Main Event. The most obvious complication would be how many guys (like Shaun Deeb) would do a Chastity Bono and get a sex change operation. (In the case of some guy like Deeb, that might be a very +EV decision - a no-brainer.)

* This "Barbara Enright" might be a Former DJ impersonating Barbara Enright.

I don't know what's funnier...suggesting a guy be open to a sex change operation to increase his EV in a poker tournament or the fact that Shaun Deeb is your default first choice in someone being ready to do it!

Katie:

Oh, it's not that far fetched. This is a little before your time, but I suppose you've heard of Renee Richards?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards

Former DJ

Funny how women fought centuries for equal rights, and now that they got them, they need "extra-incentives" to participate in an activity that requires only using your mind.

If I would be a woman I would definitely not agree with the way this is shaping out.

The reason women don't make the final table is not because they are not good enough. It's because they are only 3% of the field. Statistically speaking their chances of making the FT are extremely small. Doesn't really matter how much money you're going to throw at them if they make FT -- it's still hard to do mathematically. If they were 50% of the field I think that they would make about 50% of the final table.

You wanna get more women at the FT of the WSOP ME? Buy them in. That's the simplest solution.

Mr. busto:

OK, I realize that maybe I took a detour down the wrong fork in the road. I was struck by the compelling logic of Paul Harris's question to Ty Stewart, namely: "Why is there such a low percentage of women participating in the Main Event?"

It's OK to sit down at a poker table full of men now and then, but not all the time. I like to see members of "the fairer sex" at the poker table because it changes the table dynamics - it makes the game more fun and interesting. It's kind of like why do you watch a Humphrey Bogart - Lauren Bacall (or a Cary Grant - Evie Marie Saint) movie - or Cybill Shephard and Bruce Willis hamming it up in that 1980's "Moonlighting" sitcom? It's because we all love seeing a good battle of the sexes!!

That was the deeper point Paul Harris was getting at - the Main Event needs more excitement, more drama - more "something" to get people (not just poker players) actually engaged. When you look at significant high profile sporting events of the past that have really snowballed into a media spectacle, they have often involved some kind of male-female showdown. The absolute best example I can think of to illustrate this was the 1973 tennis match between 55-year-old pill-popping Bobby Riggs and Billie Jean King. I hate to admit this now, but I was one of those "pigs" rooting for Riggs. Despite my crushed ego after Billie Jean crushed Bobby, the one thing that televised event didn't suffer from was poor ratings. The whole country literally went nuts. (I would love it if MJ and Adam got Vince Van Patten on a future Pokercast to talk about that 1973 match. Vince was a key member of the Riggs entourage. ESPN even made a TV movie about the match which featured Vince.)

In the aftermath of Black Friday, there's been a lot of sober reflection along the lines of: "What can we do to make poker more 'mainstream' and socially acceptable - like golf and tennis and other sports?" The answer is fairly obvious: Get more women in the game! Accomplish that and I have a feeling poker will become more "socially acceptable" among the broader society.

The Main Event of the WSOP can be extrordinarily helpful in this process - if they can just figure out a way to attract more women players. There's nothing I would love seeing more than a final table showdown that boils down to a gal like Erica Moutinho locking horns with Ben Lamb. That is the kind of spectacle that even the major television networks (and not just ESPN) would cover. The end result of the first male-female showdown at the final table of the Main Event (especially when "she" wins) will be the "Moneymaker effect" multiplied by ten. Such an outcome will set the poker world on fire.

Poker could use a good "shot in the arm" like that right about now.

Former DJ

I agree with that and obviously it's in my interested as a (let's just say above average ) poker player to get more people to play tournaments (regardless of their sex.)

However just saying that "hey if you make WSOP ME FT you get an extra mil" is not going to help the cause. You still have to make the FT which his a huge payout already. Not like women were not playing because making FT of the ME wasn't being paid good enough. It's more likely because they would rather spend $10k on shoes and purses than a poker tournament.

It doesn't even have to start with the ME. Have the casinos sponsor 50 women into the WSOP Circuit ME. Sure that's $40,000 but what's that in the grand scheme of things? If they get 20 of those women to come back and put more money at the tables, they lose nothing and stand to win a whole lot.

Just randomly pick women that are in the poker room, I'm sure there are plenty that play $3/$6 limit and wouldn't mind getting freerolled into the WSOPc ME Make a couple of radio telephone competitions. If they would really want to do it they could easily. It's just that nobody really cares tbh.

I feel like a million dollars could be used in so many better ways, the buy-in and field of the main event are so big to begin with that it probably wouldnt sway anyone who was on the fence about playing it anyways.
You need to have a certain level of wealth and knowledge about poker to put up 10k to play in the main event and anyone who dosent already have that isnt gonna do it just because there is a million in equity added to the prizepool (you are guaranteed a million dollars if you final table it anyways)

I think something like this would be way more effective and appeal more to recreational female players:

Let everyone in the ladies event who have never played it before get a huge discount, so instead of it being a 1k it would be a 200$ or something more affordable, I bet a lot of people would try it out and get hooked and its obviously a way better tournament and more safe environment to get your feet wet in.

it's going to take a long time before poker becomes a 50/50 split between the genders.

if its 80/20 within 5 years, that'll be a miracle/shock.

200$ for a 1k tournament? uh.. I like where you're going but $800 discount is way too big.. how about a 25% discount across the board..

How about ladies only ME satellites and/or adding ME seats to the prize pool for the ladies only tournament? So many people that probably wouldn't have played the ME otherwise won seats via online satellites - pre-BF there was probably a pretty good opportunity for FT or Stars to step up and offer some kind of promotion to get more women into the event.

Lets see, we have something, a competition which is open to all races, sexes, and all they need to do is to pay up $10 grand. Sounds fair to me

So, why would we want to deliberately change the game, simply to encourage more women to play? Anyone with 10k can buy a seat.

If we can discriminate on the basis of sex (which is illegal, isnt it?) Why not discriminate against people on the basis of race?

Why not advertise

+1 million if you win and you are african american
+3.2 million if you are jewish
-3 million if you are asian and good at maths
+6.3 million if you are a native american
nothing extra if you are a white anglo saxon male
+4.5 million if you are an eskimo

But, hey if we are going to give someone more money for having the presence and or abscence of certain genitalia, why not compensate by

-2million if you are male
-4milliion if you are a transvestite
-3.5 million if you are a transgender.

Surely we wouldnt want a freak show to rain on the poker parade! Might be less money for us to win in future

Obviously, we would need to have a gynaecologist on hand (both figuratively and literally ) in order to arbitrate on any ambiguous genitals.

In case you think the above is unworkable, IT IS NOT, as it does happen in womens sports. There have been a few men masquerading as women in a lot of events

Then again, we will have to set different fees for pre op, post op, pre hormone, post hormone.

While we are at it , why not have a

10% discount on entrance fee if you are blonde, have ample cleavage
15% discount on entrance fee if you are blonde, have big boobies
20% discount on entrance fee if you have previous modelling contracts (we are doing this for the marketing, and marketing people loooooove pretty girls)
15% discount for blood donors and organ donators. (after all, without them, where will people get their new livers?)
8% discount for those who serve at the local soup kitchen
+20% entrance fee for the obese (after all, they have more wear and tear on the chairs, and invade my personal space as well)
+6% entrance fee for those who are democrat
+9% for those who are rich
+12.75% entrance fee for those who wear no deodorant, or an excessive amount of aftershave
+26% entrance fee for someone with 'shifty eyes'
+8% for ugly people. Maybe the entire field could rate each others sexiness, and the bottom third could be considered ugly
+3.2% for those who enter on a wednesday (why? You say? I ask, why not?)


I have always thought that the easiest way to decide whether something is sexist, or racist, is just to turn it around, and see if you still think its fair.

Has anyone ever considered the obvious facts that the majority of men like to compete competitively, hence our stupid aggression, and the ability to toss 10k aside for what may be anything from an hours to a weeks entertainment?

And that the vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast majority of women on the face of the planet would be far too smart to throw 10k cash away?

These are the most practical ideas i've seen in this thread...

I agree with what you're trying to say but this post will earn you a ban imo...

yeah, we get the point, it didn't need to be taken that far. IMO whatever is done needs to be about promotion, not discrimination.

Mr. omaha:

Oh, you're absolutely right about that - we wouldn't want a "freak show" with somebody like Shaun Deeb dressing up as a woman, entering a ladies event, (even carrying a purse to the table), and using some type of feminine product as a card protector while simultaneously uttering all kinds of insulting comments and slurs about women at the poker table. Sure wouldn't want that.

Former DJ