This. Serious amount of ignorance there. Obviously she made a choice at some point to bring her outward gender inline with her internal experience of her gender, but there's a world of difference between the transgendered and cross-dressers. The transgendered believe that they, effectively, were born in the wrong body - their brains don't match their external physiology. Cross-dressers are sexually aroused by dressing in the clothing of the opposite sex.

From the DSM-IV-TR (the text used by doctors/shrinks/counselors to diagnose mental illnesses):

Transvestic Fetishism:

A. Over a period of at least 6 months, in a heterosexual male, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving cross-dressing

B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning

Specify if: With Gender Dysphoria - if the person has a persistent discomfort with gender role or identity

Those who cross-dress regularly are almost without exception straight males who may or may not be uncomfortable with traditional male gender roles but otherwise consider themselves to be heterosexual males who just happen to derive intense sexual arousal and/or satisfaction from wearing women's clothing. If this causes significant impairment for them, they can be considered for this diagnosis. Notice the complete lack of any desire to be a female, or to live as a female.

Gender Identity Disorder (GID)

A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.

B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex. In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g., request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.

C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition

D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning

I left out the symptoms for children. As you can see, no where do sexual fantasies or arousal come into play as part of the diagnosis for GID. Until society becomes more accepting, there is almost no way that any transgendered individual will be able to transition without first receiving a diagnosis of GID, since clinical distress or impairment is the norm while they struggle with accepting themselves and gaining acceptance from others.

Oh, and since that was a poker website and Rosa Lee is well known in poker circles, the only reason to post her photo was so encourage others to mock her. There's almost zero chance this was an innocent error. And if it wasn't an error, there's only one other logical explanation for why they would post her picture along with shots of other men dressed in drag to play the ladies event. See, look, here's pictures of dudes dressing up as women just to play in a women's only tournament; and wow, holy ****, here's a dude who dresses up as a woman all the time! He's got boobs and everything! Isn't that weird/disgusting/******ed?

Intolerance and bigotry of the highest order, IMO.

* Please note that my inclusion of the DSM-IV criteria was not in any way to imply that I believe transvestic fetishism or GID should be "cured", just like the psychological community used to believe being gay could be cured. Most people who suffer from these disorders are treated in order to deal with the distress/impairment part of the disorder, not the actual behavior (in the case of cross-dressers) or beliefs about themselves and their true gender identity (in the case of GID persons).

Yeah, how dare she dress in clothing that actually shows a little cleavage, just like millions of other women. It's just like with the gays, expecting us to let them hold hands and give each other a kiss in public. I mean, that kind of behavior is only for us normal people, amiright?

So what exactly IS the bigger picture here? I feel like there are some people in this thread who are really excited to turn this into a commentary on the plight of the transgendered person in the world. However, I just don't see how this occurence is relevant to that argument.

A person, who HAS A PENIS, put on women's clothes and entered a tournament exclusively reserved for people with vaginas. Then some other people, also with penises, enter the same event. All of the other players and spectators have developed customary behavior to taunt the unwelcome players. Somewhere along the way, this transgendered person, got caught up in that taunting.

Boo f-cking hoo

First of all, this Rosa person should have been prepared for this exact type of situation. I know it's 2011 and we've evolved as a society, but sorry we're just not far enough along. When a man walks into a room wearing panty hose and lipstick, SOME portion of the people in the room aren't going to like it. So, if you're transgendered, you're probably thick-skinned enough to handle people whispering, taking second looks, etc.

If you're transgendered, and you DELIBERATELY enter an event where other men dress as women and it's customary to see much fanfare over the taunting and ribbing of those men, then....you need to be prepared for this kind of stuff to happen.

If this Rosa person is so self-conscious about her identity, then why does she go out as she does. She could have easily worn a cap, baggy shirt, and cargo pants. Instead she's got her hair straightened, lips painted, and guns blazing.

In my opinion, what happened isn't even that bad. The photographer went around looking for shots of men pretending to be women. He got exactly what he was looking for. No denying that.

But just because this particular person is different in a way that no casual observer could ever determine, then it's offensive? The OP's outrage is incomprehensible to me. Just because one day this person woke up and said "I don't want to be a cross dresser anymore, I want to be transgendered" doesn't mean that the rest of the world automatically knows that.

It's not like the governer of the state got up to a podium and said "Hey, we want all the tranny's at the back of the bus!" We're talking about a niche website that has enough journalistic integrity to use the word "Dbags" in its headlines. It's not like they set the transgendered cause back 50 years. And to their credit, they did take the pics down when asked.

Are we really calling "shame" on that website because they made the mistake of confusing the transgendered man with the crossdressing men? Get serious folks.

I don't understand how we can applaud these people for having the courage strength, and toughness to be who they really are. But once they're out, they're like faberge f-cking eggs.

You're missing the point.

Rosa is a man
She dressed as a woman
She went to a place where men dressed as women are singled out and taunted.
She got singled out and taunted.

1) based on her experience in 'ladies-only' tournaments. She should have expected this to happen.
2) If she's not ok with it happening, she could have taken action to avoid it (ie. dressed as a man)

No, YOU'RE missing the point.

Rosa is not a man. She's a woman. Mentally, emotionally, at least partially physically (breast augmentation is obvious; I don't know if she's had any other surgery) and LEGALLY. And how, exactly, do you know if she has a penis or not?

People like you are the problem. She is not a man dressed as a woman, or trying to act like a woman, or is delusion and believes she's a woman. She is, in fact, a woman. She thinks like one, acts like one, dresses like one, and has taken the legal and at least some of the physical steps to be recognized as a woman. But people like you insist on seeing her as "a man dressed as a woman".

And actually, I don't believe Rosa would have had an adverse reaction to the picture - everything I've seen from her (fairly limited, but still) is that she is comfortable with who she is. She probably would prefer she wasn't mocked in this way, but I sincerely doubt she let it bother her, either.

She is a well known poker player within the poker media. It was a photographer for a poker website. The odds that this was a mistake are slim to none.

Keep demonstrating how bigoted you are, though.

I think this is a perfect illustration of the "bigger picture" I was talking about. Awareness and compassion.

I suggest reading the entire thread before posting.

Probably, but the situation has offended some, and they are choosing to vocalize their opinions on it. No reason to chastise them for this or make remarks like this.

I don't think it's an outpouring of sympathy, but more of standing up for an individual's rights. How she chooses to live her life is her choice. However, what she does choose does not make it acceptable for people to potentially treat her in any way less than she deserves.

Great. But these people should keep their opinions to themselves or at least take precaution that their personal view does not negatively affect her.

Compassion for what?

What injustice has this woman suffered? What hate crime has been committed? What rights of hers have been violated?

And as for Awareness....

What about being AWARE that you're at a public event with photographers. How about being aware that this is an event where men dressed as women get roasted. How about being aware that you can control your exposure to that by CHOOSING how you dress on that particular day.

I'm not a bigot, or hateful person. I have no problem with the transgendered. What I'm really tilted by here is the sensitivity to a really really really minor thing. Some people in this thread are talking like this is some kind of hate crime and that the photographer consipired purposely to ridicule this woman.

The notion that just because it's a "poker website" and a lot of poker players know this woman therefore it's impossible that this was just a mix up, is ridiculous. I've been playing poker with some degree of seriousness for several years now. I've played in some big events, I read magazines and websites, and I've NEVER heard of this person before this thread. Even if I had, I doubt I could pick her out of a crowd of hundreds. Especially if that crowd includes dozens of crossdressing men, and Rosa is wearing big dark sunglasses.

So your suggestion is that, even though she's a woman, because of her history and her build, she should have chosen to dress like a man in order to avoid being ridiculed, even though she's a woman and the ridicule was going to be directed at the men playing the tournament?

Yes, I can see that you are perfectly fine with transgendered women.

Hate crime is taking it too far, since there was no crime (it's not a crime to take someone's picture in a public place, nor is it a crime to make fun of someone), but it was deliberate, and the only reason to do it was to mock her. The stated reason was to mock the men - posting her picture along with the picture of people who were obviously men dressed in drag was putting her into this category. See, just another guy dressed in drag.

Except she's not a guy dressed in drag. She's a woman. Is any of this sinking in yet?

And the idea that most of us are all riled up about this is also inaccurate. Being willing to speak up against an obvious injustice doesn't mean its consuming my day and nights.

SGT RJ - Your assertion that the inclusion of Rosa's picture was done on purpose to ridicule her is completely unfounded. It's an incendiary conjecture on your part, and before you start accusing people of being prejudice, you should probably show some proof.

And let's just cut to the chase here:

ROSA IS A MAN.

He has a Y chromosome. that makes him a man. Period.

He can put on a wig; still a man
He can wear make-up: still a man
He can dress feminine: still a man
He can take hormone suppliments: still a man
He can get breast augmentation: still a man
He can fill out some forms to get his passport changed: still a man
he can go to a surgeon and get a full gender reassignment surgery: STILL A MAN

If you have a Y chromosome, no vagina, no uterus, no ovaries, no milk ducts, and no estrogen, YOU ARE A MAN.

It's unbelievable to me that people can just say "Well LEGALLY she's a woman" and that changes everything. Just because I'm not ready to just throw the definition of "female" that's existed for thousands upon thousands of years, that makes me bigoted? And just because you're "flexible" on the definition of a woman, that makes you so much more evolved? Give me a break.

I have no idea what the guy from Konik's book looks like and I was not saying Rosa was him. I just pointed out that one guy, with no intention of becoming female, had breast augmentation. Who is to say that there was not another guy who did the same thing.

But the fact is that Pez asked a question she did not want it answered in any way except the way she wanted it answered.

She did not ask how Wicked Chops did not know Rosa was a woman. She asked how anyone could not know Rosa was a woman. I gave possible explanations and I think they are valid. As I said, if Pez does not like my answers, that is her problem.

I was basing my response on the picture. Nothing more, nothing less. That is the only fair way to come up with an answer to the question. I wonder if Pez is holding people to a standard based on all the information she has.

Don't worry CR - Pez does this kind of thing to everyone. She likes to completely adjust her standard of proof depending on how to the particular remark or anecdote fits her argument.

For example - If a woman receives any kind of material gift from a guy during their interaction, and that interaction eventually leads to sex, then that woman is a hooker, according to Pez. No doubt about it. Only hookers get stuff from guys. So if you get something from a guy, your'e a hooker.

However, even though only men have penises, this Rosa person, and his penis, somehow qualify as a woman because of a lot of other not-so-black-and-white factors.

At first, I was actually kind of inspired by this thread, seeing how much love and support there is for the trans* community.

But now I'm quickly reminded of how cruel some people can be. And I think don't even they are inherently mean people, just unaware of grey area when it comes to gender.

There is no gray area when it comes to gender. There are males, and there are females. That doesn't change no matter how many surgeries you have, no matter how many goverment documents you change, no matter what you wear, or what you call yourself.

XX = Female
XY = Male

You can try to spin it however you want. Call it 'awareness', call it 'compassion', whatever. It doesn't change the fact that this Rosa person is doing nothing more than roleplaying. ACTING. It's an elaborate con that for some reason, helps Rosa with some self-esteem and identity issues. If it works for him, great.

But let's not pretend that there is something higher at work here. There are two genders in the human race, and DNA has some pretty clear lines that can definitively put everyone into one category or the other.

^^You can keep repeating that, but it doesn't change the fact that it's your opinion. Consider that not everyone agrees with your binary explanation of gender identity.

What I don't understand is your outrage over the outrage. Don't you have more important stuff in your life to worry about? LOL

You can't have an opinion over gender. It's biological fact that can't be disputed ever.

You are confusing sex and gender.

no, you're trying to separate them because it's beneficial for your argument.

You have an extremely narrow view of gender identity.

So if chromosomes determine gender identity, what would you consider these individuals?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002163/

I mean, XY, but they have the primary and secondary sex characteristics of women.

Now obviously this is medical condition, but it does illustrate that gender is not as simple as your chromosomes.

But it's fairly obvious that, despite your claims to the contrary, you are in fact close minded and intolerant of transgendered individuals, which is illustrated by your refusal to use the correct gender pronoun (she) in reference to Rosa Lee and your continued insistence that she is really nothing more than a man in a dress.

No one understands why some people are born with the biological sex of one gender and the brain of the opposite gender, but it's clear that the transgendered still have a mountain of societal bigotry and ignorance to climb.

And you're trying to make them the same because it's beneficial towards yours.

Except my argument is that we should be accepting and tolerant. And your argument is that they deserve ridicule. :/

hi guys and girls--it's rosa (again) making my second appearance on 2+2 after a kind woman made me aware of this thread. i do not attempt to watch the dust that kicks up after me online, but we need to go over a few things for clarification.

to qualify, i studied mathematics and physics at amherst college, then completed my b.a. in women, gender, and sexuality at trinity college, and finally received my masters degree in public policy analysis. everything i am writing about here i have studied at length, and all of the pertinent factual information can be found in my two books.

first to respond to some issues in this posting:

(1) chromosomal sex is only one marker of sex. the argument xx=female xy=male is reductionist and artificial. for additional information, please refer alice dreger's book hermaphrodites and the medical invention of sex. (she is an expert in the field, has appeared on oprah several times, and is a personal friend.) aside from chromosomal sex, there is gonadal sex (testes or ovaries), external morphological sex (penis/labia), internal morphological sex (prostate/uterus), hormonal sex (precise mixture of estrogens/androgens), and psychological sex (gender). before you go posting like an expert with these reductionist arguments, it would help to check out those that went before us who completed the research.

(2) i am a woman, and always have been. the fact that i was raised and socialized as a boy is secondary (or even tertiary) and is not organic to the discussion. just because you have never met a transgender person does not mean we do not exist, and does not mean that we don't know about ourselves. my personal philosophy is always attraction rather than promotion. i will answer any question if asked, but will usually not volunteer anything.

(3) i was issued a personal apology by the head of wicked chops. i told him i would be completely willing to do a podcast for him or an article on lgbt or transgender issues in the future if such a time arose. i cannot blame him completely for what happened--we are all responsible for ourselves.

(4) i have been very much emotionally hurt by this thread and the one before. i am a human being, and as such, i have feelings. i knew that by choosing this path i would be often misunderstood, but i am here to educate.

(5) my personal opinion, and you can quote me on this: WE ARE LIVING IN AN AGE OF DIMINISHING INFORMATION ASYMMETRY. I AM PREPARED FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS. WE WILL UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT SEX AND GENDER AS OUR UNDERSTANDING OF OUR BRAINS AND OUR VERY CONSCIOUSNESS ADVANCE.

(6) i will not talk about poker or my style of play in this post--wait til you're across the felt and we'll talk with chips. otherwise, ask me anything you want (within reason) and i'll do my best to answer.

rosa lee

I do not blame whoever banned Ninja. Strikes me as a very narrow minded person.

But I had a thought. How do we know that none of the remaining players shown were not transgender themselves and have not yet been able to do anything about their outside as Rosa has? I am saying this based strictly on the photos.

Welcome to the boards Rosa, as a male may I offer my apologies on behalf of my less enlightened bretheren.

that's fine chaos/ my typical response to this type of logic is, because transmen "pass" much easier than transwomen because of their facial hair and male pattern baldness, anyone may very well have already played with plenty of men who were born women and did not even know it