**Rainbow Flops: The GLBTQ Discussion Thread**

[mrmossy84]

Playing cash games at WSOP bump

[mrmossy84]

Selbst is chip leader at the second day dinner break of WSOP Event #2, a $1500 NL Holdem event...hope she takes it down

[Protential]

Originally Posted by mrmossy84

Selbst is chip leader at the second day dinner break of WSOP Event #2, a $1500 NL Holdem event...hope she takes it down

agreed!

[Rcwillie1]

Here. Queer. Get used to it.
Low-stakes PLO cash @ Rio and Venetian.
Bright colored pants erryday.

[fadrus]

I had no idea how much I may have missed out by not having exploited my Englishness in the US. I'm thinking if I combine a visit with the next royal wedding I could be irresistable.

Originally Posted by AAmaz0n

re: 3rd gender

My view is that we shouldn't let our own biases be the guide to how we identify someone; that all people have a right to self-identify as they please. If someone wants to be a form of third gender, that's their choice, and it's equally valid with identifying as a plain vanilla man or woman. Same with transgender/transexual people who only want to identify with their new gender, it's really up to them how they want to be known.

The view that "all people have a right to self-identify" is almost a truism among liberal leaning types. I'm interested in the argument for it. Perhaps it's right, but why?

[ITT666]

The view that "all people have a right to self-identify" is almost a truism among liberal leaning types. I'm interested in the argument for it. Perhaps it's right, but why?

I know myself completely. You and everyone else knows me incompletely.

Therefor, I and I alone should be the one to identify and say who I am.

I would think this should be fairly obvious.

What is it you don't understand about this?

Or perhaps I misunderstand your question.

[fadrus]

Well I'm not sure it's true that 'I know myself completely' but even if it is I think that confuses two kinds of things.

It seems to me that 'knowing myself completely' gives me privileged access to certain information about myself that is unarguable; I like custard; I'm lonely; moths scare me etc. All my beliefs and preferences fit into this area of stuff that isn't really up for discussion. I mean you can argue about whether I'm right to believe a statement or enjoy an activity but not that I do believe or enjoy.

Then there's categories that stuff fits into. All this I think is up for discussion and just because we may be talking about a category that affects me doesn't mean that my opinion necessarily carries more weight than anybody else's. (Of course I may happen to know more about the subject but leave that to one side).

Let's say I claim to be a great sportsman and you ask me what I play. I tell you that I'm an expert darts player. You may object that darts is not a sport it's a game. There is no athleticism involved. People will disagree about whether darts players should be classified as sportspeople. I don't think I should be able to settle the argument merely by saying that's how I choose to self-identify. It may hurt my feelings that you feel that way about me and for that reason you might choose not to raise the issue further but I'm not sure that you should decide I'm right about the category I fit into just because I have a view about it myself.

So I think I can say that I enjoy sleeping with people of the same gender without that being arguable. I'm not so sure that in all circumstances I can say I'm a woman without that being arguable.

[ITT666]

A male - female transgender individual is not technically a female, that's obvious. If they have a penis and two testicles they are technically a male, of course. But if they tell you that they feel like a female, that every other part of them other then their male genitalia feels like a women, who are you, or I, or anyone else to argue with them?

If a transgender male - female person tells you they are female, just go ahead and say to them, to their face, sure of course you are, you're a women. Then if after they are gone, to your other straight male friends you want to say, 'yo dude looks like a lady, but it's still a dude, lol' well then that's your prerogative and I don't hold it against you for feeling that way.

But there is enough room for respect, tolerance and understanding in this world, that when you are in the presence of a person that was born male, but insist they are now female, you can give them that ground, give them the respect they deserve, not as a member of one gender or another, or one sexual orientation or another, but the respect we all deserve as human beings.

So the point of letting people self identify isn't, are they technically correct or not, but rather to respect and tolerate each individuals take on who they are.

[fadrus]

Your first paragraph describes one of the things I've already said can't be argued with - a feeling. So I agree, nobody should be arguing.

I broadly agree with the rest of what you say. Of course there are a whole bunch of things that people think about themselves that it would be rude to publicly disagree with whether it's gender identity or having great legs or whatever. I'm not suggesting that it's a good idea to go out of one's way to make someone unhappy just to argue a semantic point at a party.

There are of course circumstances where it does matter whether someone is a man or a woman and concern for feelings goes out of the window somewhat.

It may be that you and I are actually not that far apart. I suspect, although I might be wrong, that we both think categories are a bit fuzzy and there's no clear dividing line. I'm interested in what other people think. Maybe everyone will take that view or perhaps no-one will think it's worth discussing. I had expected that some people will see self-identification in a more hardline way and say that a person really is whatever they say they are irrespective of concerns about politeness.

[ITT666]

It may be that you and I are actually not that far apart. I suspect, although I might be wrong, that we both think categories are a bit fuzzy and there's no clear dividing line.

I do feel pretty similarly to you on this, yes.

There are of course circumstances where it does matter whether someone is a man or a woman and concern for feelings goes out of the window somewhat.

Could you expand on this a bit? Not sure I understand what you are getting at.

It seems clear you are not a bigot, and that you have no moral issue or prejudice towards somebody born a man/women, now identifying themselves as the opposite gender.

So then, I am curious, what are a few examples of instances in which you think such self identifying is a potential problem?

[Rcwillie1]

Is anyone else playing the 1500 PLO today? I'd love to do some swaps if anyone is interested. Send a PM/post if anyone is interested - it would be cool to have a reason to Rainbow Sweat someone to a final table.

[Rcwillie1]

#rainbowgrind Brasilia 31 - gl to all heroes

[fadrus]

Originally Posted by ITT666

So then, I am curious, what are a few examples of instances in which you think such self identifying is a potential problem?

Apologies - bank holiday weekend.

I suppose I was thinking of any circumstances where men and women are divided because of the rules of some organization or because of culture.

In the UK women can join the army but not fight on the front line.
In sport men's and women's events are kept separate.
Although they can no longer do so insurance companies used to weight men and women differently for the purposes of car insurance.
In the UK only people of the opposite gender can legally marry.
A number of jobs can legally be advertised as open to only one gender.
There are social groups, ie. swimming, reading etc. only open to one gender.
Where issues of nudity or privacy are concerned men and women are separated ie. toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards.

In my opinion some of these make sense and some don't; some I think should be changed and some I couldn't care less about. But I'm not sure that in any of these cases the opinion of the person in question as to their gender should trump everybody else's. I happen to think women should have the same right to go around killing foreigners as men do but it's going to be the army in the first instance and ultimately the courts that decide whether or not a particular soldier is a man.

To be honest, leaving aside the politics of the above examples, I don't really understand why it really matters how someone else categorizes you. Maybe it's because I am very clearly white and very clearly male that issues of the race or gender a person fits into seem largely irrelevant to me even though I understand these things can be hugely important to people who wish to or feel they ought to belong to one race or another or one gender but are deemed by others as on a blurry borderline.

I could be on the borderlines of clever and stupid, old and middle-aged, short and average height, fat and stocky and all sorts of other cusp-like places without it being some great issue what someone else's opinion happened to be and without it being an issue of my rights somehow being trampled on should they disagree with me. In fact it sounds odd to me to talk in terms of rights at all in these cases. I don't really understand why it should be different with gender. If I think I'm a woman and someone else thinks I'm not, so be it. I can't imagine that I'd feel they were breaching my right to self-identify or that rights talk would cross my mind at all.

[fslexcduck]

Originally Posted by Rcwillie1

#rainbowgrind Brasilia 31 - gl to all heroes

lol maybe if you told me you were gonna knock me out, i would have swapped with you ;-)

[Rcwillie1]

Bump because I am at an unreal level of excitement for EDC. Hope to catch some of you there.

Vanessa, I run the purest of pure with rundowns and the worst with aces. I busted like 22x, really lame (with aces, of course). I'm a rather awkward individual, and I'm sure it showed through, but it was pretty cool meeting you. It was fun while it lasted.

As an aside, Timex is dreamy and seems like a really nice guy, though I'm told he plays for the wrong team (for this thread)