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Old 04-23-2012, 10:19 AM   #1
Bigoldnit
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Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I'm thinking about taking a shot at the Ladies' Event in Vegas this year, but before I make my final decision, I wanted to get some feedback about the average level of play from people who have previously played in the event. I've always heard that the field is soft, but I guess I'm trying to quantify the level of play a bit more precisely in the interest of making sure that I wouldn't just be lighting 1K on fire.

How would you describe the average entrant? Specifically, does the typical player in the field:

- think on level 1, 2, or 3?
- understand how to identify good spots to 3 bet light and/or squeeze.
- understand the implications of different stack sizes.

Finally, would you expect a decent amateur player who is moderately successful at, but doesn't crush $100-200 buy in live tourneys and 1/2-2/5 live cash to be plus ev in the field?

Thanks for any and all feedback, and gl to anyone who plans on playing this year!
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:19 PM   #2
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I could be wrong since my WSOP experience is virtually nil, but I would expect you to hold your own in any $1k buyin at the WSOP, women's event or not. From all I read on here and other places, $1k buyins are generally pretty fishy, so you definitely wouldn't be lighting it on fire. The only reason it might burn up is that roughly the top 10% get paid, so for a one-time shot, you'll obviously lose more often more than you will cash. But I would think you would be +EV if you are a moderate winner live.
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Old 04-23-2012, 03:40 PM   #3
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I think it's a myth that the field is soft. What I do find is there are, like any $1000 WSOP tournament, many good players and many bad players.

But imo, the difference is that there are probably more bad players in this event than in others. When you get to the later levels, you find the level of play to be pretty good. And by bad, I mean weak, passive, easy to read, won't 3-bet without AA or KK preflop, etc.

So I look at it like lots of dead money in the prize pool, but not easy money. There is no "average entrant" but rather the women fall into a few distinct categories, but one of those categories is scary good.

If you're really interested in playing, but don't want to spend $1000, perhaps sell shares? There is a lot of interest out there to buy pieces of competent female players in this event.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:22 PM   #4
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I do think the field is very soft overall. Having only played 1.5ks+ other than the ladies, I can't do an entirely fair comparison on how it stacks up to the open events of the same exact buyin. (Also, last year was my first time playing the ladies event, but almost everyone's going to have a small sample of playing with the field in order to give their comparison.)

My first table was the softest table I've ever had in any event larger than $500. There was one woman that this was her first ever poker tournament. Almost all of the table was thinking on level 1, and I would bet that the majority of the table wouldn't have been able to correctly define a 3-bet, let alone find good spots to do it light. As is often a problem for casual recreational players, the effective stack size had little effect on how many of them played.

My next two tables were not as good (for me) as that one, but there was still a ton of value to be had.

OP, given all of your info, I would expect you to be +EV in this tournament. GLGLGL
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:08 PM   #5
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

The overall field is going to be soft (level 1 thinkers the most prevalent, followed by 2 then 3), but that's got a lot more to do with the fact that it's a $1K and, let's be honest, most poker players aren't that great, than it has to do with the fact that it's a women's only event.

I've played a couple of women's only events and one $1K WSOP event (non-womens), and ironically, I'd say the hardest starting table was the women's VDSE tournament I played last summer, but I'm pretty sure there were 2-3 actually pros at my table, which would make the table hard regardless of gender.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:01 PM   #6
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I'm excited for this event

I've asked around a little, but from what I've heard, the weak players in particular event are more weak-tight, wheras the other events around the same buy-in tend to have more of a loose-passive field.

I heard in last years' event, a woman deliberating for several minutes whether to call off her stack pre-flop with AA because she wasn't sure if she was ready to leave so early in the tournament.

So I'm going to go in there and just try not to level myself into thinking tight-passive players are 3-betting me light because I'm opening too frequently. I'd probably be a lot richer if I never leveled myself against non-leveling players

Haven't played an WSOP bracelet events before, and this will probably be my first or second, maybe third (depending on how many of the other $1K and $1.5K events I decide to play before it)
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:04 PM   #7
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

basically agree w/everything veggiepoof said. VERY easy to sell action in this event at a nice markup rate if you have a halfway-solid live/online record. boys are always looking to invest in a competent sweat in the ladies events.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:15 PM   #8
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I have played the event twice, and came in 5th my first time.

The field is very, very soft, but not in the way that most guys would imagine it to be. An entire field of women players is quite different from your average soft mtt field, and if you don't adjust to that, it is hard to get very far.

In other words, blind aggression will not get one very far. The field generally tends to be rock-ish and weak-tight. So tight that I have had women call me down, in multiple hands/tournaments, with a set, never once raising, several times even check-calling. This is what I mean about having to check aggression in certain spots. I'm thinking I have the nuts with top/top... and if I had been more aggressive I would have bet myself out of both the WSOP final table and my Bay 101/LIPS win.

I would say that anyone who can crush the usual $100-$200 live donkament is massively +EV. A fairly competent amateur is also probably +EV, given how many women who barely know how to play enter. The tournament is very fun, and a lot of families and/or groups of friends make a trip and play it together, including grandmas and granddaughters. It is a great vibe, and a lot of these women are just there to have fun and really have no expectation to win... they just don't want to bust out right away so they can enjoy themselves.

This again makes it a very different kind of field! It usually means, of course, especially early, that if they are going all in they have the nuts or close to it.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:16 PM   #9
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redhat_jane View Post
basically agree w/everything veggiepoof said. VERY easy to sell action in this event at a nice markup rate if you have a halfway-solid live/online record. boys are always looking to invest in a competent sweat in the ladies events.
very true!
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:24 PM   #10
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

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Originally Posted by redhat_jane View Post
basically agree w/everything veggiepoof said. VERY easy to sell action in this event at a nice markup rate if you have a halfway-solid live/online record. boys are always looking to invest in a competent sweat in the ladies events.
Lol. I'm pez, not veggiepoof.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:27 PM   #11
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

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Lol. I'm pez, not veggiepoof.

lol realized that almost immediately after i posted. i has a slow.

WHATEVER!

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Old 04-24-2012, 03:15 AM   #12
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

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Originally Posted by drkamikaze View Post
The field is very, very soft, but not in the way that most guys would imagine it to be. An entire field of women players is quite different from your average soft mtt field, and if you don't adjust to that, it is hard to get very far.

In other words, blind aggression will not get one very far. The field generally tends to be rock-ish and weak-tight. So tight that I have had women call me down, in multiple hands/tournaments, with a set, never once raising, several times even check-calling. This is what I mean about having to check aggression in certain spots. I'm thinking I have the nuts with top/top... and if I had been more aggressive I would have bet myself out of both the WSOP final table and my Bay 101/LIPS win.
I would say that this is a perfect description of most of the womens' tourneys i've played (not just the WSOP)...and to be honest, if you aren't ready or able to adjust to this dynamic, it can be super frustrating. I know I aggro-ed myself out of several of these before I realized I needed to dial it back a bit. Nothing like doing the walk of shame after being called to the river while "value-betting" your two pair, asking yourself, "how the hell does she not raise there with a straight?"

Even if you don't choose to play this, any of the $1k events have soft fields. Heck, if *I* can cash in one, anyone can I played an open 1k last year and my day 2 table still had 4 limpers per hand on average...near the bubble, no less!
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Old 04-24-2012, 03:57 AM   #13
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

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Originally Posted by skydiver8 View Post
I would say that this is a perfect description of most of the womens' tourneys i've played (not just the WSOP)...and to be honest, if you aren't ready or able to adjust to this dynamic, it can be super frustrating. I know I aggro-ed myself out of several of these before I realized I needed to dial it back a bit. Nothing like doing the walk of shame after being called to the river while "value-betting" your two pair, asking yourself, "how the hell does she not raise there with a straight?"
yep. another hand in particular comes to mind. I was like UTG +2 with KJ in what wound up being a 5 way raised pot somewhat early in the Bay 101 event. I flatted the original raise. The flop was KJ3 with 2 spades. I was gleefully envisioning winning a huge pot. The raiser bet out fairly small. Normally I would have raised, probably all in as I probably had 30-40bbs. But it being a women's event I decided to be cautious and see what happened.

2 people called and the big blind reraised big. I knew immediately she had exactly 33. It was impossible she had KK or JJ and just flatted, plus I have 1 of each in my hand. I don't remember if the orig raised raiser/called or just said later she had aces. I insta-folded. Someone behind me went all in with what could only be a flushdraw, or even something like the QT of spades, and of course I was right about the 33. The women with the draw won, but I didn't bust and won the tournament (after humiliating and crushing the lone guy to enter the tournament, obv )

In some ways tho, I don't mind the idea of guys entering the women's events because most of them could never adjust. They all think it would be so easy, which is why they love investing in proven women players since they can't play themselves. But dare I say you have to be able to think like a woman to beat the women? I'm not at all a gender essentialist (meaning, I don't believe that women are born women with certain innately defined qualities), but yet I sometimes feel that way!

Now I have given away my strategy and everyone will start crushing the ladies events, but I am not scared of some competition!

Last edited by drkamikaze; 04-24-2012 at 04:04 AM.
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Old 04-24-2012, 04:48 AM   #14
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

OP, it sounds like you would for sure be a good investment for this event. However one thing to consider and keep in mind is that it does tend to play somewhat shallow. Starting stack is 3k, with 60 minute levels. I'm not sure what tournaments you play regularly, but most dailies at various casinos throughout the US in the $100-$200 buyin range start with more than 3k chips. Granted they don't have hour long levels, but it's kinda rare these days to see a live tournament outside the summer WSOP that starts with a 3k stack. This is just something to keep in mind as you mentally prepare for it and adjust for a smaller starting stack than you may be used to.

I have played it twice and both times was out before the end of level 2. I felt that the ratio of bad players to good players was about the same when compared to a random poker tournament. I do think however that the chances of having more bad players than normal is higher in this event, just like all summer WSOP events, because of the fact that it's the WSOP and a lot of amateurs who have no business (skill wise) playing a 1k event, do play it because it's the WSOP.

Here is the link to the structure sheet: http://www.wsop.com/2012/structuresh...-structure.pdf
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Old 04-24-2012, 01:43 PM   #15
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

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Originally Posted by katie75013 View Post
OP, it sounds like you would for sure be a good investment for this event. However one thing to consider and keep in mind is that it does tend to play somewhat shallow. Starting stack is 3k, with 60 minute levels. I'm not sure what tournaments you play regularly, but most dailies at various casinos throughout the US in the $100-$200 buyin range start with more than 3k chips. Granted they don't have hour long levels, but it's kinda rare these days to see a live tournament outside the summer WSOP that starts with a 3k stack. This is just something to keep in mind as you mentally prepare for it and adjust for a smaller starting stack than you may be used to.

I have played it twice and both times was out before the end of level 2. I felt that the ratio of bad players to good players was about the same when compared to a random poker tournament. I do think however that the chances of having more bad players than normal is higher in this event, just like all summer WSOP events, because of the fact that it's the WSOP and a lot of amateurs who have no business (skill wise) playing a 1k event, do play it because it's the WSOP.

Here is the link to the structure sheet: http://www.wsop.com/2012/structuresh...-structure.pdf

excellent points. Though in my experience, most $100-$200 donkaments start pretty shallow or get there very quickly even with a bigger chip stack, so I actually think those are great prep for playing the WSOP events.

Being able to play shallow stack poker at all levels of the tournament is just such an invaluable skill and is often what I feel separates me from the rest of the field. So if there is something you want to work on, that is what I would advise looking at.

At women's events that start deeper stacked, I often don't feel I have much of an edge over the field early, but, with the later short stacked play, the difference is enormous.
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Old 04-24-2012, 02:54 PM   #16
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

Thanks for all the feedback, ladies... Reading your comments have definitely reassured me that while there will be tough players there, I won't be completely outclassed if I do decide to take a shot (as long as none of you crushers are at my starting table, obv )

- As far as the 3k starting stack goes, I actually think that could be good for me. I used to grind online SNG's, so I have a pretty good sense of shoving/reshoving ranges, etc (although as I've played more live, I've certainly learned the importance of adjusting those ranges based on the competition and my image, and I'm sure that will be the case with this tourney). And, as Dr. Kamikaze says, a lot of "deep stack" tourneys start really deep, but due to quick levels/a lack of early bustouts, stacks can get pretty shallow pretty quickly.

- As far as the field playing a bit weak-tight/trappy, I'll definitely have to be careful about value towning myself as I'm fairly aggro, sometimes even a bit spewy. Fun example: a few weeks ago, I crippled myself in a b v b when I raised pre-flop, called the villains' raise of my c-bet, bet the turn and shipped the river and he snapped me off with K high... Good times . I guess between now and the WSOP I'll try to get to the casino during the day to log some time with the coffee drinking "no set, no bet crew..."

- As far as staking goes, I'm an amateur and my life roll can easily take a 1k hit, so I'd rather just have all of myself if my luckbox happens to be working well that week.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:27 AM   #17
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

Good thread - this will be my first time playing in the Ladie's event and I had some of the same questions for those who have played in it before.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:13 AM   #18
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pezbaby View Post
I think it's a myth that the field is soft. What I do find is there are, like any $1000 WSOP tournament, many good players and many bad players.
lol way off here. Never played a ladies event but the 1k and 1500 wsop events are some of the softest tournaments you will ever find for over $20. If the ladies event is even comparable to those tournaments you will be printing money if you have a brain.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:48 PM   #19
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

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lol way off here. Never played a ladies event but the 1k and 1500 wsop events are some of the softest tournaments you will ever find for over $20. If the ladies event is even comparable to those tournaments you will be printing money if you have a brain.
I think you should re-read what I wrote and not just take one line out of context. I wasn't talking about the field in level one. I was talking about the field in the later levels. It's not printing money.

I'm just tired of idea that this is an easy tournament to cash in. It's not. Some of the best female pros have never cashed in this and play it every year.

Last edited by pezbaby; 04-25-2012 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:51 PM   #20
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

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If the ladies event is even comparable to those tournaments you will be printing money if you have a brain.
right, because having a brain = being a good poker tournament player = printing money in a soft tournament.

Simply astounding.
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Old 04-25-2012, 11:08 PM   #21
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I smart. Print money. EZ game.



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Old 04-26-2012, 08:51 AM   #22
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I agree with the crown dude, the 1ks are absurdly soft events and even they're 'difficult to cash in' your potential ROIs in them can be absolutely massive even just using a basic strategy once you get deep in the tournament.
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Old 04-26-2012, 10:21 AM   #23
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I think the ladies event, like the other 1ks, have the greatest majority of Level 1 thinking players, who want the experience of a WSOP event without a huge financial commitment. But clearly, solid players and women pros know this, and you can't assume its an easy field just because its women.

My first time playing I played 10+ hours at my first table, recognized no one, and ran my stack up to 30k with little resistance. By the time I got moved, the field was shrinking, approaching the $$ bubble, end of day 1, and there were 4 pros (that I recognized) at my table. Stacks were deeper and the play was much more complicated.

Like any tournament, just hope for a good table draw!
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Old 05-20-2012, 03:57 AM   #24
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

I have played three ladies events with last year bubbling 20 from the money after basically enduring being card dead for most of the tourney. The BIGGEST suggestion would be given the long levels to play rather tight early to keep precious chips and do your best to chip up as best you can. Now if you are at a passive weak table and can limp with a lot of hands wo fear of being raised then SCs and small pairs can be profitable plays from almost any position. Then take opponents to value town when you flop big.

I also like the advice of not underestimating their hand strenght by their lack of action. Many players in these events are only too happy to have the percieved aggro player at the table to do all their betting for them. So a small ball approach I found to be very effective.

I came in second a few years ago in the California state ladies championship.. way before I learned hand reading to any extent and I got some nice hands early built a stack and then kept raising 2.2-2.5x and was amazed that I basically never got played back at. Even at the final table when the biggest stack had only 11bbs you still saw players folding 5 bbs trying to move up in chips.

As the field got smaller in the ladies event I did see many more better players but even at my last table there was at least 2 fish at that one. Now I bought my seat a few days early so I had a rather low table draw.. I like the idea of having players bust and new one coming to me. I feel I have the most time to get to know the players and adjust to each of them. Now if you end up with a tough draw it sucks but the turn over will happen and the tables change immensely even in a few hours.

If I can get a stack early then I feel I will have a chance to take this down.. If I have a stack then I can be alot more aggressive with any hand holding and can steal the all important antes..

As a final note.. the 60 blinds are really really long. so be prepared for that. dont get antsy.. dont get frustrated.. think of it as an equalizer with so much play at each level there is no rush.. so relax and let the game come to you.. later when the blinds are higher then you can push a little..

h
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Old 05-26-2012, 11:59 PM   #25
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Re: Question for women who have previously played in the WSOP Ladies' Event.

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right, because having a brain = being a good poker tournament player = printing money in a soft tournament.

Simply astounding.
You obviously know what I meant. Having a brain = using it during a poker tournament. I was saying you don't even have to be a good poker tournament player to do well in wsop 1k's. If you understand the concept of ranges you'll be very +ev in those tournaments.
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