There is more to poker than high stakes online NLH cash games. Everyone has their own specialties and weaknesses (unless your name is Phil Ivey, but that's one person on this planet). If your name is Phil Hellmuth, there would probably be a long wait list online for you if you sat at a high stakes HU table, but does that make you less than world class in the MTT circuit? If your name is Phil Galfond, would you be as feared at the WSOP as you would be online? Damn, I'm naming my kid Phil if I want him to be a world class player.

Put one of these online pros who has never played live on your typical 5/10 live table, and it'll still take him quite a bit of experience before he reaches the hourly rate of a good live 5/10 grinder. It takes live experience to understand live tendencies.

Give one of these women a few million hands of high stakes NLH online experience, and who's to say she won't be dominating the current regular winners? It's just not a game that any of them have focused on.

edit: lol @ the book being for women. Total coincidence via google images.

No offense to your statements but a good live 5/10 grinder probably isnt that good at all(If they were good they would be playing higher guaranteed...), id much rather have someone who learned playing live cash at my table then an online pro who grinded 5/10 online.

I don't get why people think online players who are solid/decent winners would suddenly freeze up or play inadequately playing with such a small amount on the table in comparison to the amount they usually play with online multitabling 5/10+ with 1k on each table. Would phil galfond still be a dangerous/world class player at WSOP? Uhyeap? Maybe that was a trick question but if you have a galfond on your left in an MTT its going to be much more hazardous to your tournament life that a phil helmuth(less aggression, more call, more preflop leaks) lol.

Sorry but this is just so wrong. Every single good online hsnl pro would do fine live and in fact most of them do play nosebleeds live as well. When 500/1k plo ran last summer it was a couple live pros/fish and then mostly online pros. I know Galfond played in it I think Dwan was there too and a couple others I didn't recognize. When the big live nlhe games run same thing it's typically guys like jungleman that are there crushing those games as well. There is such a thing as a good poker player. The nosebleed online guys are just plain good poker players. They understand the game super well and it doesn't matter if it's online, live, cash, or tournaments. It's not that they couldn't beat 5/10 live or 1k tournaments if they wanted to, it's just that they aren't worth their time (although they actually do sometimes play 1k wsop tourneys just for the bracelets and they generally do quite well in those.

You call this a good player, then?


Stolen from another post. This is the difference between live and online. Online players are too focused on GTO play at first, so they miss out on chances to exploit because the exploitive line is often becoming exploitable yourself.

I used a good, let's say $100/hr 5/10 grinder as an example because that would be a player good at that specific game, and it's the highest available sometimes. It would take an online-only player a while to to learn what the most exploitive method of play is because it would be something they wouldn't consider online.

And I never said players like durrrr or Galfond weren't great. I said there was more to the picture.

And in a large MTT, I do think that I would rather buy shares in Hellmuth than Galfond, because Hellmuth works wonders with unorthodox play to make a deep run with an amazing frequency. That doesn't mean I would find it easier to play with Galfond on my left. Harder to play against does not always equal highest EV

must not have seen that mement mori has posted ITT

Anyone who has followed online mtts on stars over the past year would know that Ana Marquez and Princesa have both done exceptional well and are both clearly world class players.

Yea, I agree with you.
It's generally the low to mid-stakes grinders who have a tougher time adjusting to live (like myself). The hs online players normally don't have too much of an issue playing hs live...in fact you can even argue that live is easier for them since they are getting more info at the table vs online. And everyone knows online cash has the best players anyway.

I have a lot of hsnl and hsplo player friends who crush online and crush even more live.

I completely agree.

A few years ago, we adopted a kitten who was slepping under our porch in January. I named her Vanessa Rousso, because the 2+2 Pokercast had named the human Vanessa their female player of the year.

If we get a male kitten, my wife says we have to name him Doyle.

I got my start in poker watching the old-school players, including Kathy Liebert and Jennifer Harman. I have great respect for both of them. Liebert does it the right way (IMO). She uses her own money, is always bankrolled for what she plays, and has never been backed or staked. Translation: She actually got to keep all the money that she won.

That said, those old-school players are going to have to adapt or die. It certainly can be done. Phil Hellmuth has certainly adapted. Lee Jones is one of the authors of Raiser's Edge, a recent book about staying current with the changes in poker theory and practices. Jones is in his 60s. I'm 57, and I'm on my second readthrough of that book.

I remember seeing Jennifer Harman on a televised tournament, and she is, in my opinion, in big trouble, whether in cash games or tournaments, unless she makes some changes.

In the hand that I saw, Jennifer showed down a hand, and Andy Bloch told her that she had about 12% equity in that hand. She was very suprised by that number. She has described herself as a feel player, not a math player.

Harman is now playing against women like Vanessa Rousso, who graduated from high school early, then graduated from Duke in 2.5 years. While she was at Duke, she got an economics degree and, in her words, "fell in love with game theory."

Being a feel player isn't going to cut it any more, and I'm afraid that one of my favorite players is soon going to be irrelevant.

Wrong Vanessa, which explains why your cat is confused as to why your not calling her by her real name, Vanessa Selbst!

Vanessa Rousso was named by the 2+2 Pokercast as their 2010 Female Player of the Year. Her best live result in 2010 was 3rd in a WPT 10K.

I'm neither one of the authors of that book, [1] nor in my 60's. I'm old-school, but not that old school.

I did, however, graduate from Duke in three years. [2] I fell in love with computer programming and North Carolina barbecue, not necessarily in that order.

Regards, Lee

[1] You probably mean "Lee Nelson" - it's not the first time we've been confused.

[2] Yale, however, turned me down. Just as well - if the typical student is like Vanessa Selbst, I'd have been toast.

has there ever been a woman world class NL cash player ? the only one i can think of that maybe comes close is Selbst but i think she quit cash a long time ago and while better than most pros i don't think she was involved much in the highest games at the time. i am not talking about live games here, just online NL cash . actually add limit to that , has there been an online limit female huge winner ? i know harman played 100/200 on FTP once in a while but it was obv part of her contract and not sure if she is even up overall.

I think we have to stop throwing around phrases like "world class" who even knows how we are defining that.

Best woman NL cash player right now is probably Mysters_Y. She's a battler.