They are pretty poorly represented...

Annie Duke=bleh

Oberwhatsherface came off as a ***** IMO during the main event

Vannesa Rousso is super attractive but still an annoyance.

And then there is Jennifer Tilly...she....I'm not even going to explain.



Harman however, <3

correct

meh, maybe

first part is wrong imo, second part is still right
Agree fully with this.

I think part of the problem is that women in poker who get a lot of attention/become "name" pros usually don't get there strictly on the merits of their game. Prime example: Vanessa Selbst is PHENOMENAL, but doesn't get nearly as much press time as her game deserves because of things that have jack squat to do with her as a poker player. It's unfortunate, but I think that in order to become a name pro a woman has to have a sellable, marketable, packageable image and that holds a lot of very talented players back while giving the spotlight over to some who don't necessarily deserve it IMO.

came in here to vote "yes" for women on top.

actually, i had more of a theoretical question:

why do the ladies of this forum think there are not more A-list females? is it simply a numbers thing? just a linear equation?
random numbers for illustration: 1M poker players, >1% A-list, x% female= >1x% female and A-list?
i know the ladies are out there gettin paid. i'd def root for a female champ!

IMO the same thing is happening in the world of poker that happens in the world of chess. See http://www.chess.ca/misc_files/Maass...nd%20chess.pdf for example. Stereotyping has an effect and there are strong selection effects. Men doing better than women at top levels of competition is a natural consequence of there being more men than women in the player pool, and this condition becomes self-sustaining as it feeds the perception that women "don't have what it takes".

(Although poker doesn't seem to have a much larger % of women at entry levels than at the top, as happens in chess, so I have to wonder a little. I imagine that being in a casino is also more intimidating in general for women than for men, again because of stereotyping. Poker is different from chess in that it not only involves a need for "killer instinct" but also a tolerance for risk.)

its nice to hope

I agree that Selbst should be a lot more respected that she seems to be, at least based on what I've read/heard.

I volunteer to become the next top female pro if someone volunteers to coach me.

In all seriousness, however, I think this is mostly just a numbers game mixed in with a touch of sexism. There simply are more men in the game by a huge amount, ergo most of the top pros are going to be men. The sexism comes in when certain women are lauded for their talent, but their status as "top pros" seems related more to their physical appearance than their poker prowess. Particularly on televised events, people (men) would rather see a hot but mediocre female player than an extremely good but average looking female player.

There are many reasons (that have been debated/discussed for many years on many forums and by many institutions and respected individuals) why more men play chess than women, one important one has to do with cultural considerations. Getting into this subject will derail the thread I am afraid. I suggest a new thread be started and we ask Jenium to respond, being that she is a 2-time U.S. Women's Chess Champion, and has written a very popular book on the subject of women in chess.

Unless I am misunderstanding your other point, you seem to indicate that chess does not require a killer-instinct?
I have to wholeheartedly disagree with you on this point.
I apologize if I misunderstood, but imo, having a strong & smart "killer" instinct is vital to the success of a good chess player.

I'm so gay for Vanessa Selbst.

Yeah, you misunderstood that; chess certainly does require a killer instinct - it doesn't require the risk tolerance that poker does, because there is no element of chance involved in the play, and because it is not nearly as often gambled upon (although that does happen).

OK, yea thought I might have. lol.

cindy violette imo

I think this is a pretty good summary, I really like the point about the self-fulfilling prophecy...

One difference between poker and chess is that in chess there are ratings so it's really obvious how good you are. A total beginner dude with a big ego can't come up and talk his way over a woman who has a 2200 (master) rating. I've seen many try but they are easily shot down by numbers alone!

Whereas in poker, a lot of mediocre or bad male players are very good at talking the talk whereas even v.strong female players tend to be less vocal. For instance, I was shocked when interviewing one extremely successful online female poker player...she said something like she didn't post a lot on 2+2 because she was intimidated. When statistically, she'd be one of the most successful players on any thread she posted on!

http://www.pokulator.com/img/lauren-kling-lapc2.jpg

I would say there are a lot of men also that are an embarassment to male professional poker players.

For instance, look at Doyle Brunson and Mike Caro...two guys that have done a lot of good in and outside of poker...do some research about them..you will see.

Then you got Daniel Negraenu(easiest example to pick on); who is all of the media and twitting and such about shaving his junk...


While Doyle and Mike do get some publicity it is not near the amount of Dan Negraenu....Now compare PokerStars.com to DoylesRoom.com.


The media and advertising will always have a major misguided influence on the general population....therefore, misrepresentation is inevitable.

Lets not forget about David Skalansky either....never see him, but look at where we are posting...Mason Malmuth..any many others that are better representatives then Phil Hellmuth and the likes of.

mimi tran is excellent

not imo...I watch poker to see good poker being played

Lauren Kling <3

Poker player or not

Actually if you look at the numbers when it comes to biggest tournament earners the % of women @ the top is tiny when compared to the #'s shown by men. If females really make up 8%(got that % from a friend IDK how accurate it is) or more of the poker playing population then @ least 8 women should be in the top 100. I'd settle for 5 really.

I used to follow the top female players list at the hendon mob database. It got way too depressing and frustrating. Just served to make me feel hopeless and angry. The top female earners with few exceptions were still way lower in all time ranks than their male counterparts.

A man wouldn't place anywhere near the top 100 players if he only made a deep run in a 10k event. Kara Scott and Tiffany Michelle placed very high on the top female players list by doing just that.(tho I believe Kara won a smaller tournament prior to the '08 WSOPME I'm afraid that points to just how askew things really are. That's just tournaments. I think for highest stakes cash you maybe have just Jennifer Harman?

Top 100 all time moneymakers(tournaments obv) still only shows Annie Duke and Vanessa Selbst.

Think about it. It's backwards marketing. If the weakest demographic is females then it's incredibly daft to market towards horny guys or everyone else and lump women in with everyone else, though women frequently react differently from men right? On top of that there are already plenty of guys who play poker and/or watch on television.

Of those who watch, I believe you're in the minority there Evan.

Still the marketing is backwards. Women don't relate well to many other female players apart from the likes of Jennifer Harman. It's because they're tarted up and marketed towards dudes. Even the female players who start out looking fairly average/normal/not on the prowl seem to get a skankalicious makeover as soon as they place high in an event and get sponsored.

I'll piss someone off but this is true - the average woman doesn't see herself in a scantily clad female who's wearing enough makeup for three Thai lady-boys, two visual kei superstars, and RuPaul(it's still too soon for a Michael Jackson joke) put together. N/m that when any of us wear makeup it's probably too much and we've all walked out of the ladies' room with our dress tucked into the back of our undies @ least once. It's about how we perceive others and ourselves. Perception needn't be factual to be honest.

Long story short - women will relate to average looking or cute but not overblown female players. Throw in real skills and no problem.

Moneymaker worked because the average Joe could see himself in Moneymaker. Honestly the people I see getting hated on the most are the ones the average person has trouble relating to.(male or female) It's not just looks either. Personality and publicized lifestyles play roles too.

P.S. I hereby claim durrrr as a top female player. He's very pretty and his dulcet tones are quite soothing. No you can't have him back. He's ours now and we've got the pics to prove it thanks to these forums.

Based on information that we've gotten from the WSOP and other anecdotal / observational evidence, the number looks more like 3%.

There's a whole 2+2 thread about WSOP women's numbers here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...nners-1044200/

Any of us here could become a known pro if we're young-ish and somewhat attractive, and happen to catch a hot streak in a major tournament. Then, all it takes is one major title for a little attention.

I just realized I played with Mimi Tran for hours at the WSOP ladies event and didn't know who she was. I thought she was a pro because she seemed to know a lot of people in the area.

Brag: I bluffed her out of the first two pots I played with her when I had air
Beat: She didn't pay me a single chip when I flopped the nut flush against her. I was hoping she was getting frustrated from my stealing small pots from her and bound to play back at me, but apparently not.

bump