first, did i address the situations you spoke of or did i address the situation that katie was in?

second, a man acting in a rude, threatening, or inappropriate manner toward a woman or women at a table is not inherently sexist. he might just be a rude, threatening, inappropriate jackass towards everyone, or he might actually have some irrational prejudices or grudges against women. if you have no logical basis on which to accuse him of being sexist other than "i am a woman" then you have no argument. he might just be an ******* that thinks he's the **** and treats everyone, male or female like that. the point of the question was to establish whether there was any basis for katie to actually think that they were complaining about her because she is a woman or because of what she said. is it illogical to think that if a guy said the same thing that they wouldn't have also pitched a fit? i don't think so. to me, these guys sound like the same kind of idiots that get upset and tilty when "some young internet punk starts doing all this raising preflop." again, their behavior is unwarranted, disrespectful, and completely absurd, but based on the recollection provided, there isn't any evidence that it was actually brought on by sexism. some of the other stories ITT (including the one you linked at the aria that was just bizarrely disgusting and on behalf of all the dudes out there that don't treat people like that i'd like to apologize for that) are completely different in scope as they have obvious gender-based attacks or contain overt sexual harassment. this story just doesn't.

third, it was my understanding that anyone with justified statements and critiques is allowed to post in here, and that this forum did not "just" serve as a place where girls can be girls (for lack of a better term). i do not like the way that katie says these men acted towards her, but to say that it was obviously sexist is just plain wrong, and to make allegations of sexism, itself an incredibly complex and divisive topic, without sufficient justification is disparaging to those of us who actually try to promote equality and understanding among genders, races, nationalities, etc. as it makes a mockery of the actual cases and problems of sexism and makes people take the subject less seriously.

this was the most coherent series of arguments you've made so far. yay. glad we're getting somewhere.

sure, the dude katie was talking about could've just been the sort of guy who was a jerk to everyone. but it's impossible to determine whether or not this is the case. we don't know the guy, so all we have to work with is katie's account of the incident.

i just went back and re-read her story to refresh my understanding of the event. when i finished reading it my stomach tightened with stress. i have been in the exact same situation (speaking up and commenting about a rule not being enforced in the interest of keeping the integrity of a live game) and i can tell you that, as a woman pointing things out there is DEFINITELY a greater amount of backlash that comes from men in the 55+ demographic when something like this happens. (we could get into a whole sociological analysis about why this is the case, but that's a really boring research paper and i swore those off forever after grad school.)

obviously there is no way to prove that what happened to her was made worse by the fact that she is a woman. but as a fellow woman, i can tell you that i have been similarly ganged up on and i felt the same way she did. i knew that part of the reason why these guys were so pissed was because i was a woman. they didn't have to say it, i could feel it in the way they looked at me. i fully believe katie when she says that she didn't need it spelled out. women are intuitive creatures: if she felt it, i'm positive it wasn't a figment of her imagination.

personally i think it IS worse for women to point out that the rules aren't being followed because it is a trigger for those jerks who DO have sexist attitudes. when they see katie (a woman, who has been playing aggressively & kicking their asses) "getting on her high horse" and reprimanding them for their misbehavior it embarrasses them in front of their (male) peers and they feel compelled to behave in an aggressive manner in order to assert their dominance. did you note in her story she felt at one point that the entire table had turned against her? (calling the floor, intimidating her, causing chaos, etc) i'm not saying the whole table was a bunch of he-man woman-haters in their day-to-day lives, but the chain of events that escalated into katie feeling overwhelmingly attacked (for a expressing a perfectly valid concern) definitely reeks of the sort of pack mentality common among groups of men with deeply-ingrained sexist attitudes who felt threatened by the aggressive actions of a woman.


the bottom line is that whether or not this was a case of "provable" sexism, katie is now going through life making statements like, "i've learned that as a woman it's probably better to just keep my mouth shut so this sort of thing doesn't happen again" and this is an incredibly damaging way for women to think about their contribution to the table. we shouldn't ever be afraid to point out rule violations just because we think an unenlightened soul might freak out if we dare to speak our mind.


am i making even an ounce of sense here? man i hope so.

airwave, I actually agree mostly with what you're saying that I think not all the rudeness women receive that are interpreted as sexism are actually sexist, but I also agree with jane that a lot of the times it is. I think most women will be able to recognize overt sexism (and hey, if they're poker players, they probably have a heightened intuition anyways) where the burden of proof lies more within their intuition than conclusive evidence (I mean, where are we going to get this conclusive evidence from anyways unless the man is making obvious sexist comments or says "I hate you because you are a woman".

The biggest problem with the women's side to this debate is that their testimonies aren't exactly complete because they are 1) a lot of them are second hand 2) one has to be both present at the table, and paying close attention to the situation to get all the details, especially if it's something that is subject to varying interpretation (perhaps something that isn't overtly sexist, but simply rude, and we have to interpret the motivation behind the comments rather than the comments themselves to determine whether it was sexist).

Though it may seem kind of ironic, and perhaps only a semantic debate about what umbrella term somebody's prejudice falls under, I think it actually is sexist and/or ignorant towards men for women to assume rude comments are being sparked by gender prejudices. A lot of people are just rude. Sometimes people just don't like other people for undisclosed/random reasons, and their only method of attack is to express the most apparent difference between them when they don't actually hold a prejudice against the group they are condemning, but simply an individual who happens to fall into that group. It's still unfortunate and something that shouldn't happen at a poker table and should be dealt with, but I don't think women should always interpret these comments as sexist.

[x] 25yo swm that has been in this situation numerous times at 5ish different home games, including ones with women engaging in the antagonizing
[ ] happened bc i'm female
[x] happened bc i "disrupted what they wanted to do"
[ ] learned bc i'm young that i should just shut my mouth so this sort of thing doesn't happen again

like i said, douches will be douches about certain things, but don't throw out sexism where it doesn't exist. if she gets the impression that she should be quiet "bc she's a woman and should let boys do what they want to do" then that's an entirely different character flaw that would speak to her lack of self-confidence that could probably be explained through a number of other societal pressures that women face on a daily basis that really are incredibly sexist and derisive and negatively affect millions of other women on a daily basis. not that i know her personally, but from what i've seen in reading some of her posts on here, she doesn't seem to have that problem, and that's a great thing.

i do get your point about sexist attitudes, and i think you do believe that i get your point, and that we just disagree about this incident. i do wish, however, that you could address me without talking down to me.

most of the time you are going to hear it though. you're going to hear things like "you bet like a pussy" or "you play like a girl" (albeit these are supposed to be insults directed at guys) or "i'm not gonna let a girl push me around!" i've found that the one thing that is going to be really blatant at a poker table, mainly bc women are still a huge minority in the game, is those men's attitudes towards women. if you have a table full of dudes and a male dealer, it's almost a given that at some point women are going to come into conversation or even sexist jokes like the above, and how those men talk about them when they're not around speaks volumes about how they really feel about women. even the times where i've played with women on the table (and these women have ranged from very respectable, courteous, casual players to quiet, almost invisible, tough players, to downright rude, abusive women that i would actually rather leave the table than play with again), most of the men who i'd already figured out had opinions that were less than positive of women when it came to "intellectual" games like poker didn't really change their behavior that much, and really displayed characteristics that i thought were even worse, like assuming the woman was needy and couldn't do things on her own or bitching at me when i swore during a tough decision bc "a woman was in the room and shouldn't hear those words."

on a side note, i did have a girl try to flirt with me in the middle of a game at a chess tournament when i was in high school. she kept talking to me through the entire thing. it was kinda funny. i flirted back a little, beat her fairly easily (i was much higher rated than her at the time), and just continued on my day. boy power! j/k

Yes, you are correct. Everyone is welcome to post here in TWSS as long as the conversation remains civil, which I believe it has so far.

Second, regarding the bolded part...
As I stated in my previous post, this was not a one-time incident. This has been a recurring theme in my poker career since I learned the game in 2004. It does not matter what country I am in or what continent I am on. USA, Europe, Africa...I have encountered the same type of behavior from men at the poker table all over the world. I have even had my life threatened by someone who absolutely could/would carry this out over a rule violation objection by me in an Arab country. I am not making these feelings up, Airwave. They are real and are backed up by real experiences.

Every situation I have witnessed where men have brought up rule issues at the table stays with me and is what forms my overall opinions, feelings and live poker persona. It is my personal belief and experience that the amount of opposition observed is significantly less than when I am the one speaking up.
It has taken me a while to learn how to deal with these people effectively, mostly because my internal conscience is telling me that I should not have to treat these situations with kid gloves. I should be able to speak up and not worry about the anticipated pack-mentality that will surely commence. But this is not the case.

Yep. So much this. You do a much better job explaining it than me. This is exactly how I see it, and is exactly how I feel as well.

Now, I have seen a pack mentality escalate of men vs men, but it has been for something way different and extremely warranted. I have never witnessed a pack of men vs men for a simple rule violation observation - and such a basic rule at that. I was telling two 60 year old men to stop talking during a hand, and then I called out the male dealer who was 2x now not doing his job. If I was a guy, I am almost sure my comments would have been laughed off with some chummy remarks made by everyone, as I have witnessed many, many times and the hand would have continued normally. The pack chaos that escalated was purely unique to my gender, and always is. This is why I make sure to mention how I made the rule violation comments: as monotone/unemotional as possible, so as not to fluster them any more than necessary.


This is a very valid point. And I am definitely the first one to admit that I have held my tongue, so to speak, so many times to simply avoid the pack chaos that is so quick to erupt.

One interesting side note that just occurred to me.
I played my first $10k event this summer, wsop ME, and I remember a few times there were rule violations that I did speak to. I consciously told myself before the tournament that I would not let anything go this time...this is a $10k buyin event...the rules are going to be followed.
Not one time did I encounter the usual pack behavior I am accustomed to.
Maybe this just means I need to stop playing $300 live poker tournaments, lol.

Please don't tell me that this is the extent of your live poker experience from which you are drawing your viewpoints and trying to relate to/refute ours with.


bet you can't beat my bf

girl, this x 1000. i find that the smaller the stakes (and, subsequently, the more amateur the players) the more likely i am to encounter jerks who (a) don't follow the rules (because they don't know them, duh) and (b) are likely to get snippy if i mention anything to them. (and it's often accompanied by a dismissive, "what, do you work here or something*?")

more than anything else, the more advanced the player, the less likely he is to be one of the a-holes who is causing drama. (generally these are the guys who side with me during these conflicts and are always the first to back me up when the floor shows up to mediate.) i think that skill begets mutual respect among professionals, regardless of gender. the guys causing problems are almost always fish that are seeking an outlet to express their frustration with losing.



*-:in situations where rules are being broken i really make an effort to give the DEALER the opportunity to address any rule-breaking going on at the table (ie: someone's not speaking english, people are talking during hands, etc) because i'm so sick of hearing this line. sadly, many dealers don't give a f*ck about their jobs and some of them let things slide way more than others.

You are correct. My post wasn't dealing with the verbal and physical assault that you describe. Rudeness of any form is unfortunate. As others have stated, treating people respectfully would be preferable.

It's generally true that the higher the stakes, the friendlier the game is. The average 1/2 fish probably thinks he's a lot better than the average 5/10 fish. The average 1/2 fish thinks they are a winning player and curses luck as the sole reason they lose. This leads to a lot of them lashing out at people because they need someone to blame. Similarly even the winning players at 1/2 probably don't totally understand variance yet and could be prone to getting upset really fast over losing a few buy-ins.

On the other hand the average 5/10 fish has made a lot of money from places other than poker and the average 5/10 winner has experienced a lot of downswings and is smart enough to realize that ridiculing a fish is one of the worst things they can do in terms of their bottom line. There's almost always at least someone lashing out/ridiculing someone after they get sucked out on whenever I play 1/2 (usually ridiculing me lol) while I haven't seen anything like that at 5/10 in awhile.

Not sure how that helps all that much because people should be able to play any stakes they want while not having to deal with that kind of **** and with the kind of clientele casinos attract in general I can see it being far worse as a female.

I do agree with ^^^, you see a lot less problems at higher stakes with ignorant people. Really ignorant, cruel, sexist people consist moreso at lower limits mainly playing these limits due to their sheer stupidity in life, ergo you will encounter more *******s at the ghetto stakes. Are you more likely to get robbed walking down a dark sideroad in a shady ghetto neighbourhood, or on the rich family home street? You certainly could get robbed on 123 richroad avenue but its certainly more likely you will encounter a thug on the dark sideroad. Two roads, one much safer than the other emotionally.

I do mostly play 2/5 and 5/10 and these events that appear to be so common to these women I have NEVER seen and ive played for a long time. Sure there can be some minor hostility or verbal arguments generally its old man vs woman player... but ive never seen them be touched in any way, not even as a joke, or badly harrassed ever. This is after years of playing...

just burp and be rude, that outta stop them

I prefer the "one-cheek-sneak" myself. Then I blame the dealer.

It has been years since I have played live poker, but I remember a late night, early morning session at the Mirage when a player in the one seat had horrible gas and was exploding non stop to the point where the dealer was becoming ill. The floorman refused to do anything about it and let the player continue.

He was probably trying to get a girl's attention.

hee hee

bump