OP, I'm sorry you went through what you did and had a horrible first experience with live play. The vast majority of the time, people don't go through the experience you did. I hope you haven't given up on live play and that you'll find for the most part players and rooms won't tolerate a situation where a player is made uncomfortable.

That said, there are *******s in the world. You can't control what they say in the near term. However, a lesson my father taught me is that the only person who can allow you to be insulted is yourself. If you refuse to be insulted, another person can't insult you. That doesn't mean you ignore what they said. But you learn to make that person seem ridiculous in response. Making that person a butt of a joke turns the table (in this case literally) on them. Mel Brooks in many of his movies had the goal of making Nazis look so ridiculous that nobody could ever take their philosophy seriously again. Werner Klemperer told the writers of Hogan's Heroes that there was only one rule with his character: No matter what, Col. Klink could never win (Klemperer was a Jew).

In the OP's case, I tend to agree with the poster that said there was a good chance the villain wasn't referring to the sexuality of the OP after losing 3-4 BIs in one hour. It was more frustration than anything else. A simple comment of, "Yeah, I had top FH. What was I thinking when I got stacks in?" could have defused the situation. If it escalated, then most of the table would have backed you up in stating that the villain was out of line.

Part of it also comes down to whether you are playing for a living or for entertainment. If for entertainment, then don't put up with it. Take a break, ask the floor for a seat change and move on. It is harder in a tournament and you're a pro like fslexcduck. You can't decide to move when the table is +EV because you are making a living. On the other hand, handling it like Daniel Negreanu would be more entertaining and make the villain (is there a word more suited for Men "the master"?) look bad. "Gee Men, just because you don't have a horse available at the table to chip dump to you doesn't mean you have to take it out on me." "Sorry you're in a bad mood, it isn't my fault they changed the tournament chips and you didn't get a chance to steal any yet." What can he do? If he complains, he looks bad (let alone no pro believes him) and you get to say afterward, "Wow, Men, didn't know it was that easy to put you on tilt." If he doesn't, the conversation focus is now on him. If he escalates, just laugh in his face.

Laughter defuses a lot of situations, especially in a high testosterone environment. Use it to your advantage.

Lot's of interesting comments. I will say a couple of things:

1. For those that mentioned the "last bastion of straight maledom" (except for every sporting event, strip club, and most board rooms apparently), note my thread isn't titled "how to stop homophobic or sexist remarks", it's asking how to deal with them. I've gotten some great ideas and thought through a lot about it from some of what I've been told. So don't worry, you can still have your testosterone and your language. I'll just take your chips.

2. As for words like *** and others being just a part of poker, I'm not one to go crying every time I hear a word I don't like (or wouldn't use). I do know the difference between someone using a term loosely or in conversation and when someone uses a phrase and stares me straight down trying to make a point or threat. Truth be told, I never felt in danger from the guy - it was more about being caught off guard by it.

3. Standing up for yourself isn't a negative, but finding that balance is an interesting point. They villain in my game was throwing money everywhere. Does it make it the sound move to keep quiet in these situations because of the poker play? Vanessa made a good point - no one wants the bad player to leave the game, so we put up with more. Is it ethically right? I don't know. Will we all make more money? Probably. Will other casual players (that also like to donate to the cause) leave because they are uncomfortable? I don't know.

So, to recap - don't want to take away your manhood, just your money. Fine line between a backbone and not losing a fish on the line. There don't seem to be any hard and fast rules.

I went back and reread the original post. As it appears the player was criticizing your play and not calling you that name, I would let it drop and there was no need to defend yourself. It would be another matter if he said, "You must be some kind of [insert slur] to make that play."

I never got the impression that OP hit a 2 or 4 outer after most of the money went in. If so, then you could argue this, but in general, I don't think this is the case.

Semi grunching, can't stand some of the NVGish posts in this thread.

The difference between having thick skin for normal insults and hate speech is that hate speech is part of a mentality in our society which directly leads to abuse and discrimination. Women and gay men are often the subject of violence/job discrimination/sexual assault because of a culture of statements like "you're a f*****," which makes standing up against hate speech distinct and much more important than a petty insult.

If a big fish said "Girls play so weak" to a female player at my table to I would frown a little inside but not expect anyone to do anything but continue to stack his chips, but if he says "You are a b****, You're going to get raped," I would hope that there would be an uproar about it from my tablemates.

+1000 to your post, but especially these to 2 points. IMO, no one should take abuse from a fish just so the entire table can reap the rewards of taking their chips. We should, as individuals, handle it how we feel justified at the time.

I went back, reread the initial post a third time plus many of the succeeding posts by the same poster and I am rather upset. At the OP.

This was his first time playing live, he knows no one, and he accuses the other players of knowing he is gay.

He is making assumptions of his other players and that is just as wrong as if the other players did make asumptions about him.

<pause self imposed banning>

1. poker is an equal opportunity venture

2. you dont control other peoples feelings nor are you responsible for them.

3. all opinions are valid but they are not all logical.

4. most emotional outbursts are brought around by habitual thought and these habitual thoughts are often products of a irrational belief.

ie if you are/ are not [X] you are [Y]

<resume self imposed banning.>

He says that anyone with a "gaydar" could tell, but its really not the point anyway.

Basically the villain in this said "that was a ***** play" and there are many problems with it, first we know that the word itself is a hateful word, because it applies a negative connotation, which used in any way is meant gay=bad so regardless if he even knew that OP is homosexual or not, he said gay=bad and OP happens to be gay, so yeah I think he should take offense to this comment.

Its not really a question of how out of line it was, or how thick skinned you need to be to play poker, or deal with just going out in public, I am heterosexual, so I could not even imagine what even going out in public with your significant other would be like, just on a daily basis, you cant comfortably hold hands, or any type of behavior that would draw attention to yourselves because people like this villain are always making comments, and even when they dont SAY it, I imagine its just uncomfortable to be in public with a partner. Can you even blame him for not knowing what to say.

I come from a culture where homosexuality is not even close to tolerated, my family (on my dads side) would absolutely disown me if I were gay. That is my own family. I dont know what kind of support group this OP has, but I imagine that its hard enough as it is, without intentional ridicule, or coincidental. I would be beyond paranoid if I were gay, and I dont know how I would react to this comment if I experienced it the way OP did.

But SGT is right, there are lines that get crossed, and if more people would show some resistance to these types of comments, we move forward.

I have 3 children under the age of 5, I adore them, I want to be included in their lives no matter what, and I dont look at sexual orientation as being right or wrong. I hope that however my children develope, that these types of encounters are far from the norm. The fact that we are even discussing "how bad" the comment was, shows that we are not quite there yet.

Basically it comes down to this, if you are a homosexual and would be offended by this comment, than it is inappropriate and crosses the line. We cant speculate as heterosexual males, about how harmless it is, because we cant know the feeling.

Congratulations on making one of the dumbest posts in 2p2 history.

Yes, thank you for catching on to that livegrinder.

Perhaps it is that aspect of it, that just made everyone else ignore it, figuring why even bother...

or perhaps they didn't catch on to the fact that the post has multiple needles in it, and that the use of 'fabulous' could even be considered a borderline homophobic slur, as I am pretty sure A. the poster is himself a homophobe and B. did intend fabulous to be used as an insulting, and disrespectful needle.

But pretty much the only people with gaydar are themselves gay or bisexual males. Some females have it to some extent as well. Pretty much no straight guys have it. I'm referring to subtle/acute gaydar here, not obvious 'that guy is a raging flamboyant queen' gaydar.

but anyway...


in my opinion...

this is pretty standard


It could be much worse than that, and people will say these kinds of things in the poker room all of the time, and you need to learn to deal with it if you want to play live.

I'm not saying if I think it should be allowed or not (actually I do find that particular comment to be passable, and I say that as a bisexual guy myself, who has had his share of intimate and sexual relationships with other guys,) or making any assumptions about your over all toughness or ability to deal with it, but the bottom line is, they will never get in trouble with the floor for that particular comment (they didn't even call you a *** directly, they called your play *****,) and that's the way it is, and they way it, likely, always will be.

And, to be honest, as has been previously mentioned, you want your opponents to be steamed and tilted. If they weren't allowed to make those kinds of comments, they might not say anything at all. That might make it harder for you to discern if they are tilted or not. When he says that, it's very easy, you know for sure he is tilted, and you can keep target and isoing and beating up on him.

i routinely stick up for all races, creeds, sexes, etc. at the table almost no matter what.

if i were at this table i would have said something to the guy along the lines of "keep your prejudiced thoughts to yourself"

i would just smile and wink at him

Honestly, just this or even better just say yeah man you are right. I have a bro who died of cancer and every time I hear it in the online felt, well honestly man it hurts at first. Then I think its because they are really bad players (fact- I never been told to get cancer or aids by anything other than a mouth breather). I think in this case it being your first live game is what made it harder, I had my first live game last month and felt like I was back in Kindergarten as you guys call it.

Next time turn up with a gay pride badge

Edit- And also dont credit us straight blokes to much I once walked into a gay pub when it wasnt so busy and played 2 games of pool and several convos with peeps before I caught on, then proceeded to have a great night with the owners there. ****** is a way overused word though in us vocab as far as I can tell, *** is a smoke here. I did call an online player on msn a man lover though and he went stellar, I guess somepeeps are not comftable with their sexuality.

At a public table I would tell the loudmouth to sit the "F" down and shut the "F" Up and I guarantee that he would. I am not a violent guy (anymore) but I still have the look.
Real tough guys don't need to tell others how tough they are, they just are. He is a jerk plain and simple. He is not a man, he is a fish and though they live in schools they learn nothing. Ignore him, you are better than he. I speak up because I owe it to someone I once knew.


When I was a kid, I was like all my friends (or so I thought) mildly homophobic, I didn't want to hurt anyone or call them names I just wasn't into it. I had a great friend though, He was something else. A guys guy and always there when you needed him. I lost track of him after high school but when I came home from college, I made an attempt to contact him. No computers or google back then, but finally after about a year I ran into his cousin. First question after the usual "how are you's?" was "how's Frank?" She looked at me and had tears in her eyes. "I remember how close you guys were. I guess he couldn't tell you... Tony, Frank died from AIDS. He was gay. He died alone.His father banished him."

It is more than 25 years later, and I will never forget that night or those words. The guilt I felt as I thought about all the times we told him about girls we liked (he had set me up with his cousin) and the things we did, and he could never share with us his life for fear we would have shunned him.

At my 10th reunion, about 3 months later, I ran into three of my other HS buddies. They too were gay! How could I be so asleep at the wheel? My friend Stephan laughed at me and told me, "Tony, you just never gave a ****. That is one of the reasons we loved you, we knew you would probably not be happy about it, but you would never let anyone hurt us." Then I remembered how many times in HS I got in people's faces for calling those guys F-gs. I think we would all be really surprised if we knew how many of us straight guys mind when people use those kind of words.

Sexuality, real honest sexuality, is something most men feel discomfort about. It requires them to confront issues moral, religious, ethical and romantic. We would rather talk tough and tell each other how good we are in bed and who we've "done" who we'd "Do" and how we'd "Do her". We want to fit in and we don't want to deal with feelings. With age, most of us mature and realize our own sexuality isn't injured or determined by the sexuality of someone else, nor does his sexuality make him any more or less a person of honor.

Poker players of a certain age, are ******ed socially from what I have observed. They have yet to realize there is a life outside of the casino or computer. You will find that saying little is as helpful as saying a lot. If confronted with violence, you have to stay safe. If confronted by a drunkard blowhard fish who just blew his roll, well let him rant while you order a beer for yourself with his money. Winning is the best revenge.

And if you see an aging 350 lbs former golden glove heavyweight telling some a**h*** to sit the F down and shut the F up, say a prayer for Frankie, and come over and say hi.

ACshark

That is in a sad way a really lovelly story.

Just remember not everyone is in your position and have to put up with daily insults, and it really sucks (I am not gay but disabled and get called names daily not that I am comparing the two). The op will face this again and you cannot fight everyone, its just a sad fact a large part of the world population are pricks. Sadly things like this happen when we are having the most the fun or are the most relaxed so its a massive juxtaposition mentally.

All you can ever do is be happy with you life and who you are, if you can do both of these things then you have won. I am semi-winning at the moment and thats good enough for me.

+1
My beautiful wife is very disabled now. She is mostly wheelchair bound, she's been sick since she was 36. She keeps going on for us though and we keep trying to help her fight her fight. I see how hurt she is just when people push by and sigh or talk under their breath. I don't respond cause she would kill me, lol but I'd like to. Our goal is to be here for the cure, you aren't semi anythying, you are winning please keep it up.

I think this advice is spot on.

I am not sure how I would feel in fslexcduck's situation. I had heard about it,
felt like "wow, he was such a douche" but in the end, we want their money.
I am wondering why no penalties were instated other than he was an easy target.

I don't think a poker table is quite the right venue for raising a rainbow flag.

I think as long as you are comfortable in your own skin, then it would be wiser to just play your cards and let it go.
I think if this had happened maybe after your first dozen times playing, I think this would not have affected you quite so much. Your nerves were already on edge.

Glad you booked it as a winning session!

Why are these threads constantly started in the women's section? People are terribly mean when playing poker. Ive had people tell me they hope I get AIDS and all sorts of things. You can bet people get made fun of for everything from being fat to black to old to a dork at the poker table (I normally get #3...). In fact probably the ONLY thing people arent made fun of for at the table is being black, i guess thats the one and only line that white people are always scared to cross.

People will keep doing it, because they are mad, because they want to make you mad, whatever. Might as well expect it. Best possible thing to do is to have a response which puts them on tilt, and to let it go.



(also I dont know why most of them are even insults. I get called a dork, and its like "ok? are we stating facts? Paris is the capital of france, IDK what we are doing here." *** is meant to be negative, but it just means gay, which means you are getting called what you are, which is stupid.)

Think you missed some value here.

I'd definitely have replied with something to make the vacuous neanderthal squirm.

I just don't understand what the huge deal is. If you're offended, say something. However, if someone called my play "fat, bald, white, heterosexual crap", I wouldn't care. I am fat, bald, white, and heterosexual, and that's just how it is. If he called it a f***** play, I'd probably use a flamboyant voice and say "thanks sweetie" and blow him a kiss. He'd either get the point, laugh, leave, or go on tilt -- any of which works fine for me.

I don't understand why a group of people get so bent out of shape over words. I've never had someone respond to "what a sick hand" with "that's offensive -- I have cancer and AM sick". Although, I may have to try that one out.

When I'm at the table, I act like it is normal life - that is, I don't let hate speech slide. I've found that if you speak up, most people will get embarrassed and apologize, and hopefully will be less likely to let loose in the future.

There is a reason gay youth have a suicide rate 4 times that of their peers.

+1

This is a pretty powerful fact. We all would like to believe: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." Unfortunately, that saying is not used 100% in practice even if it's usually the optimal line. People who actually give a crap about what others think...words can hurt.

Anyone who was ever the target of bullying as a child knows this. I'm fairly certain whoever dreamed that saying up was a bully themselves trying to justify their actions by claiming that "words don't hurt".

Words sometimes start wars. Can people lessen the impact of offensive things by trying not to take offense? Of course, but that doesn't negative the offensiveness of the words, IMO.