The Superturbos (aka "sejjeturbos") Discussion Thread

[Xereles]

Quote from friend on skype:

"EV line does ACCOUNT for non-AI pots since they determine the outcome of the game, and that outcome is included in the redline

EV line does not ADJUST for non-AI pots because It has no way of measuring things such as equity by street and include that in the results"

Second one is what you have issue with.. but it definitely does account for non-AI pots.

[bunzablood]

Originally Posted by Xereles

sighh...
it does, it does...
I said it doesnt specifically show non sd. It shows all non-allin pots together. Not just non sd. But also showdown pots. But it does show all "non all in pots". Because if you add your EV diff to the result of the game you get AI-EV + everything else...

It shows what it says it shows.. yeah yeah card distribution and all that.. it claims nothing of the sort.. it is still more accurate than greenline.

X, I think u might be wrong. I checked a simple game just now. Just 3 hands:
-1st two were non-showdown and 'EV diff' gave 0.
-3rd game we went allin and 'EV diff' gave 23.65.
-'EV Won' is showing as 23.65.
-I check this against the EV Line (redline) and manually calculated before and after on the graph, and it shows me losing 76.35, which is 100-23.65 (in a 100's ST)

This clearly shows that non-sd or non-ai are NOT being used in this game, ONLY ai-ev was used, both for 'ev diff', 'ev won', and ultimately, the redline, which used the 'ev won'. This is HEM. Thoughts?

I think if we all take a look at our personal dbases and look at a few very easy examples like I have used, games with 5 hands or so, and look at them, u can practically see what is ultimately being used towards the redline. In my case, it's ONLY non-river ai that matters, the first two hands, one was a preflop 3bet by me and a fold by opponent and and the other a raise-fold were not at all taken into account, only the 3rd hand was, the ai hand.

[_dave_]

there is a huge thread in STTF almost every theory of broken redline is analysed, then usually debunked. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36...thread-573570/

find/F3 jukofyork's posts, he's good at explaining.

[genher]

Originally Posted by Xereles

sighh...
it does, it does...
I said it doesnt specifically show non sd. It shows all non-allin pots together. Not just non sd. But also showdown pots. But it does show all "non all in pots". Because if you add your EV diff to the result of the game you get AI-EV + everything else...

It shows what it says it shows.. yeah yeah card distribution and all that.. it claims nothing of the sort.. it is still more accurate than greenline.

The red line add the diferences in EV in All IN pots only (as shown in the detailled calc above), everything else is accounted as 0 and therefore has no influence whatsoever on your red line.
For instance, $200 HT, if you fold all hands till you have 1 BB left. All these hands you have folded will show an EV diff of 0 (because you were not all in). Then you are all in with your last BB you lose and it generates a EV difference of -$4.50 (because you are all in).

As you have said the red line will be plotted as the result of the game+ the sun of the all in EV diff, in this case -$200-$4.50. So only that last BB will have an impact on your red line.

The same would happen if you had lost all your chips exept 1BB but were never all in (the EV diff will be 0 because it's not an all in and therefore have no impact on the red line plotting)

I am not quite sure were we are not understanding each other here!?

[Xereles]

Originally Posted by genher

.

So you fold 200$ worth of chips basically and the EV line shows you as -200$ + the EV. How is this wrong in any way whatsoever?

[genher]

Originally Posted by Xereles

Second one is what you have issue with.. but it definitely does account for non-AI pots.

well, sorry but look at the hands in a tourney in your HEM and you will see that it doesn't. if you are not all in the EV diff is $0.

[Siriusz]

Originally Posted by genher

well, sorry but look at the hands in a tourney in your HEM and you will see that it doesn't. if you are not all in the EV diff is $0.

EV diff is 0, EV won isn't 0. You can just ignore my post if you wish though, I probably don't have that much to add in this discussion and will be better off leaving.

[genher]

Originally Posted by Xereles

So you fold 200$ worth of chips basically and the EV line shows you as -200$ + the EV. How is this wrong in any way whatsoever?

it's not "wrong" as such but as I have said b4, if you lose nearly all your stack to a 2 outer but are not AI it wont have any impact on the red line. But the last few chips you shove will.

difficult to conclude how well you have played from just looking at your EV line in that case. Problem is that case is very commun in HT as a lot of all ins happen in end game.

[genher]

Originally Posted by Siriusz

EV diff is 0, EV won isn't 0. You can just ignore my post if you wish though, I probably don't have that much to add in this discussion and will be better off leaving.

but EV diff are the one plotted in the red line

[Fausto50]

Originally Posted by genher

The red line add the diferences in EV in All IN pots only (as shown in the detailled calc above), everything else is accounted as 0 and therefore has no influence whatsoever on your red line.
For instance, $200 HT, if you fold all hands till you have 1 BB left. All these hands you have folded will show an EV diff of 0 (because you were not all in). Then you are all in with your last BB you lose and it generates a EV difference of -$4.50 (because you are all in).

As you have said the red line will be plotted as the result of the game+ the sun of the all in EV diff, in this case -$200-$4.50. So only that last BB will have an impact on your red line.

The same would happen if you had lost all your chips exept 1BB but were never all in (the EV diff will be 0 because it's not an all in and therefore have no impact on the red line plotting)

I am not quite sure were we are not understanding each other here!?

The problem here is that you're mixing up EV diff and redline.
If you lose all your chips in non-AI pots, it WILL have an impact on your redline, because as a result of losing all your chips the redline will go down by 1BI (just like the greenline).

However, if you lose all your chips in non-AI hands except one, and then get allin for 1bb then yes only that last hand will make your redline DIVERGE from your greenline, by the amount of the EV diff. Maybe that's what you meant by "only that 1bb will have an impact on your redline?"

[_dave_]

Originally Posted by Xereles

EV line does not ADJUST for non-AI pots because It has no way of measuring things such as equity by street and include that in the results"

FWIW we used to have software to calculate this too, but it was abandoned since it doesn't work due to bias. PokerEV, in Street-by-street mode. it's easy enough to calculate street-by-street aka "sklansky bucks", especially HU - but bias is created since you don't see opponent hands with an equal distribution, e.g. he doesn't call the river value bet when he missed the gutshot. AIEV adjusted does not suffer this bias.

Originally Posted by bunzablood

X, I think u might be wrong. I checked a simple game just now. Just 3 hands:
-1st two were non-showdown and 'EV diff' gave 0.
-3rd game we went allin and 'EV diff' gave 23.65.
-'EV Won' is showing as 23.65.
-I check this against the EV Line (redline) and manually calculated before and after on the graph, and it shows me losing 76.35, which is 100-23.65 (in a 100's ST)

This clearly shows that non-sd or non-ai are NOT being used in this game, ONLY ai-ev was used, both for 'ev diff', 'ev won', and ultimately, the redline, which used the 'ev won'. This is HEM. Thoughts?

I think if we all take a look at our personal dbases and look at a few very easy examples like I have used, games with 5 hands or so, and look at them, u can practically see what is ultimately being used towards the redline. In my case, it's ONLY non-river ai that matters, the first two hands, one was a preflop 3bet by me and a fold by opponent and and the other a raise-fold were not at all taken into account, only the 3rd hand was, the ai hand.

This likely shows that the SD and non SD were indeed taken in to account. did you get it in with exactly 23.65% equity? if yes, were stacks exactly even? if not, the EV-Diff is scaled to account for the non-allin pots that took place prior to the hand.

[Xereles]

Originally Posted by genher

but EV diff are the one plotted in the red line

no, as stated in your quotes the red line is EV diff + result of the game.

[ohly]

Originally Posted by genher

difficult to conclude how well you have played from just looking at your EV line in that case. Problem is that case is very commun in HT as a lot of all ins happen in end game.

the topic only occured because you said the difference between actual winnings and redline in that disgusting graph where caused by redline being inaccurate, so you seem to believe that greenline is more reliable than redline. do you distance yourself from that statement? because nobody is saying that redline takes variance out of your graph...

[bunzablood]

Originally Posted by _dave_

FWIW we used to have software to calculate this too, but it was abandoned since it doesn't work due to bias. PokerEV, in Street-by-street mode. it's easy enough to calculate street-by-street aka "sklansky bucks", especially HU - but bias is created since you don't see opponent hands with an equal distribution, e.g. he doesn't call the river value bet when he missed the gutshot. AIEV adjusted does not suffer this bias.



This likely shows that the SD and non SD were indeed taken in to account. did you get it in with exactly 23.65% equity? if yes, were stacks exactly even? if not, the EV-Diff is scaled to account for the non-allin pots that took place prior to the hand.

Actually, yes, the stacks were exactly even (500 each) when we went allin. Okay, that would probably explain why non-sd wasn't taken into account. Good analysis, Dave!

I'll report back with a game that isn't as simple...

[Fausto50]

Originally Posted by bunzablood

Actually, yes, the stacks were exactly even (500 each) when we went allin. Okay, that would probably explain why non-sd wasn't taken into account. Good analysis, Dave!

I'll report back with a game that isn't as simple...

You can look at as many games as you want, it won't change the fact that results will be accurate every time because the formula used by HEM to calculate them is always the same and numbers don't magically fluctuate according to the cycle of the moon or the time of the day.