**Official PokerStars Heads Up SNG Improvement Thread**

[PS Walmsley]

Higher Buy-ins
There are certain risks and costs associated with offering Sit & Gos that are relative to the buy-in rather than a fixed overhead, such as refunds due to technical issues for example. The percentage rake on $5000 HU Sit & Gos is already very low. When you deduct the costs associated with those risks, the normal overhead and the VIP rewards for players, who at these stakes may often be Supernova+, there is very little left over. We are not eager to create additional offerings at this level of rake and players would no doubt expect rake to be even lower at higher buy-ins.

At some point in the future we may introduce a method of unregistering players from all unstarted Sit & Gos when they lose network connection with our servers. If this happens, we will evaluate the impact on the costs of offering higher buy-in Sit & Gos.

[Radish]

Originally Posted by emotionx

Deal/Chop button
One concern we have regarding some form of chop button is that it could be used for flipping to quickly gain VPPs. We are giving it some thought though. If we were to do this at some point in the future, it might only become available after a certain time or at a certain blind level.

Please, common sense. Whoever wants to flip vpps they would still do it and sort out the difference lol, thats not stopping them from doing it.. also, thats a thing that almost no1 would like to do since u lose a ton from rake. Makes no sense.

Also this "flipping strategy" is only -ev for them and +ev for stars. Cmon.

+1

[Old Bean]

With regards to multiple lobbies, I seem to remember that lower stakes HUSNGs used to have plenty and there were no problems with dozens of regs each sitting one table because they filled so fast. The higher the stakes, the less tables in the lobby imo.

[Drooler]

Originally Posted by PS Walmsley

Add Extra Table
We agree this would be a clear improvement with little or no downside. Therefore, we will strongly consider adding this in the future.

Deal/Chop button
One concern we have regarding some form of chop button is that it could be used for flipping to quickly gain VPPs. We are giving it some thought though. If we were to do this at some point in the future, it might only become available after a certain time or at a certain blind level.

Reduce/Increase length of time for rematch option
I've seen different opinions on this. I'd like to see if we can come to a general consensus in the thread.

Suggestions regarding more (or unlimited) simultaneous registrations
I can see that there are many diverse opinions on the best option for the number of simultaneously registering Sit & Gos. So far there doesn't appear to be a consensus in the thread.

We believe the current system is functioning well. However, we do realise that the smallest stakes Sit & Gos may be so popular that it is difficult to register before they start. If this is happening, please let us know and we will investigate. If necessary we could add one or two additional concurrent registrations.

Thank you for your response but what is your stance on adding a leaderboard and other promotions

[taikogod]

Originally Posted by PS Walmsley

Deal/Chop button
One concern we have regarding some form of chop button is that it could be used for flipping to quickly gain VPPs. We are giving it some thought though. If we were to do this at some point in the future, it might only become available after a certain time or at a certain blind level.

As emotionx explained, this is obv just +EV for you guys if someone were to flip. Also can be done w/ manual calculation and it wouldn't stop someone from doing it (if they were stupid enough to) anyway.

Reduce/Increase length of time for rematch option
I've seen different opinions on this. I'd like to see if we can come to a general consensus in the thread.

The general consensus is to reduce it. People who are saying increase are most likely trolling.

Suggestions regarding more (or unlimited) simultaneous registrations
I can see that there are many diverse opinions on the best option for the number of simultaneously registering Sit & Gos. So far there doesn't appear to be a consensus in the thread.

We believe the current system is functioning well. However, we do realise that the smallest stakes Sit & Gos may be so popular that it is difficult to register before they start. If this is happening, please let us know and we will investigate. If necessary we could add one or two additional concurrent registrations.

IMO it's fine right now.

.

[att]

What about hiding the cashier in the rematch window? [ ] in the options menu, that it is off as default (showing cashier as default).

[kaija7]

Originally Posted by Drooler

Thank you for your response but what is your stance on adding a leaderboard and other promotions

I also want a feedback about this.

[ChicagoRy]

Originally Posted by PS Walmsley

Add Extra Table
We agree this would be a clear improvement with little or no downside. Therefore, we will strongly consider adding this in the future.

Deal/Chop button
One concern we have regarding some form of chop button is that it could be used for flipping to quickly gain VPPs. We are giving it some thought though. If we were to do this at some point in the future, it might only become available after a certain time or at a certain blind level.

What if you reduced or removed VPPs on chopped tables? What if you reduced or removed VPPs on chopped tables only for players with 500k+ VPPs (anything less would be giving up too much to get to the next tier level, right?).

[fastcolt]

I can't help but feel that all arguments here against more lobbies are very poor.

I don't want to necessarily convince people to change their viewpoint although i am inclined to lean towards the idea that more lobbies would be better for everyone.

I see weakish regs opensit 200/300s daily who get offended when u sit them, so this lobby system being better for the games, and keeping the weak regs out, i doubt it. Maybe at 1Ks its true tho, because you have certain people so motivated to protect there lobbies but at other stakes, the real bum hunters imo, are not the weak regs open sitting and hoping to not get sat by a better player, it are the good regs allowing the weak regs to opensit!
solely because most good regs with solid results don't want the variance (if they actively chased it they wouldn't have these solid graphs ducy?). So in that sense the real bum hunters are actually the better regs right now who stay clear and don't protect the lobby.
So how is this system preventing bum hunting? when its obviously super rewarding if you don't defend the lobby, and don't take the variance and let someone else do your dirty work?

Which is fine and up to them of course, but i don't think they should act as if they don't want weak ish regs to get a lobby by giving multiple lobbies.

also the people talking about hourly, you say more lobbies, less hourly, i wonder how is that?

Imagine ur a 200$ reg at superturbos, u wake up, register 100$ st, 200$ and 300$ lobbie and u go make ur coffee or w.e

in 5 minutes u will have at least 1 game up and if u re-reg the lobby u got action at, I'm SURE it would be fairly easy to get 3 games running the majority of the time (assuming u rematch only the fish) while it might be true to start off your session it would be somewhat slow, once u have some tables up and theres an open lobby u can instantly reg at as soon as u get a table of that stake up, it will be so easy to put in big volume.

I am 100% convinced that u lose more hourly right now, being the solid reg you probably are, who waits until he can snatch up a lobby and if a weakfish reg is quicker then him, he waits another 5 minutes and who probably plays anywhere between 15-50% of games vs other regs lifetime because of the misclick regs. Then you would if u were "waiting" while having a different table up.

Honestly, its impossible to measure or even estimate what the numbers and difference are exactly. But try and think of these factors

A main point brought to everyones attention (i hope at least) is the point ShaneO19 made:
- Grinding the lobby has become more important then being good at poker.

This is so true its absurd. No one even questioned this statement.

now imagine the sad truth between it, when u reg at same time with another reg, u most likely lose rake. Oh yeah your so much better blah blah u can beat rake vs anyone, I'm sure buddy but even if u are beating the rake an overall 0% roi will most likely reduce ur overall win rate AND your hourly as well as and it will increase your variance as well.

a second factor to consider given this point is, u have 1 table up, and u spend perhaps 70% of your attention playing the 1 table, and 30% monitoring the lobby trying to register asap into another lobby as soon as its empty. Im sure we've all had it, we timed out on a hand in a game while we were trying to be the quickest regger in the next lobby to get up 2 tables.

In other words ur hourly decreases again. and your variance increases again.

I can state many more examples why i think more lobbies could be good for everyone except lets say Skaiwalkurrr and i have no clue why i see some people here who i think are fairly intelligent argue otherwise, because their arguments don't make sense.

I hope we get into a consensus because to be honest I'm fairly sure ill play on ftp only if stars lobby stays like this, and ftp comes back. Despite the big distrust i feel towards em.

I like especially how some people argue, there are way more regs now so we need LESS lobbies. Haha ;D

I'm fairly sure that the main reason why people argue for 2 lobbies only, is either being misinformed, haven't given it enough tought, or wanting to look like a bad ass on the forums.

[Drooler]

Originally Posted by fastcolt

I can't help but feel that all arguments here against more lobbies are very poor.

I don't want to necessarily convince people to change their viewpoint although i am inclined to lean towards the idea that more lobbies would be better for everyone.

I see weakish regs opensit 200/300s daily who get offended when u sit them, so this lobby system being better for the games, and keeping the weak regs out, i doubt it. Maybe at 1Ks its true tho, because you have certain people so motivated to protect there lobbies but at other stakes, the real bum hunters imo, are not the weak regs open sitting and hoping to not get sat by a better player, it are the good regs allowing the weak regs to opensit!
solely because most good regs with solid results don't want the variance (if they actively chased it they wouldn't have these solid graphs ducy?). So in that sense the real bum hunters are actually the better regs right now who stay clear and don't protect the lobby.
So how is this system preventing bum hunting? when its obviously super rewarding if you don't defend the lobby, and don't take the variance and let someone else do your dirty work?

Which is fine and up to them of course, but i don't think they should act as if they don't want weak ish regs to get a lobby by giving multiple lobbies.

also the people talking about hourly, you say more lobbies, less hourly, i wonder how is that?

Imagine ur a 200$ reg at superturbos, u wake up, register 100$ st, 200$ and 300$ lobbie and u go make ur coffee or w.e

in 5 minutes u will have at least 1 game up and if u re-reg the lobby u got action at, I'm SURE it would be fairly easy to get 3 games running the majority of the time (assuming u rematch only the fish) while it might be true to start off your session it would be somewhat slow, once u have some tables up and theres an open lobby u can instantly reg at as soon as u get a table of that stake up, it will be so easy to put in big volume.

I am 100% convinced that u lose more hourly right now, being the solid reg you probably are, who waits until he can snatch up a lobby and if a weakfish reg is quicker then him, he waits another 5 minutes and who probably plays anywhere between 15-50% of games vs other regs lifetime because of the misclick regs. Then you would if u were "waiting" while having a different table up.

Honestly, its impossible to measure or even estimate what the numbers and difference are exactly. But try and think of these factors

A main point brought to everyones attention (i hope at least) is the point ShaneO19 made:
- Grinding the lobby has become more important then being good at poker.

This is so true its absurd. No one even questioned this statement.

now imagine the sad truth between it, when u reg at same time with another reg, u most likely lose rake. Oh yeah your so much better blah blah u can beat rake vs anyone, I'm sure buddy but even if u are beating the rake an overall 0% roi will most likely reduce ur overall win rate AND your hourly as well as and it will increase your variance as well.

a second factor to consider given this point is, u have 1 table up, and u spend perhaps 70% of your attention playing the 1 table, and 30% monitoring the lobby trying to register asap into another lobby as soon as its empty. Im sure we've all had it, we timed out on a hand in a game while we were trying to be the quickest regger in the next lobby to get up 2 tables.

In other words ur hourly decreases again. and your variance increases again.

I can state many more examples why i think more lobbies could be good for everyone except lets say Skaiwalkurrr and i have no clue why i see some people here who i think are fairly intelligent argue otherwise, because their arguments don't make sense.

I hope we get into a consensus because to be honest I'm fairly sure ill play on ftp only if stars lobby stays like this, and ftp comes back. Despite the big distrust i feel towards em.

I like especially how some people argue, there are way more regs now so we need LESS lobbies. Haha ;D

I'm fairly sure that the main reason why people argue for 2 lobbies only, is either being misinformed, haven't given it enough tought, or wanting to look like a bad ass on the forums.

Wait times are long enough as is during off peak hours, please don't add anymore lobbies at the $100+!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111

[att]

First off all i think your observation of the situation is wrong.
There are many Regs who are chasing other regs if they see them in the lobby. Some to the point where they dont care who is sitting in the lobby, just to get an empty seat. Likes of Harthor and Siervos for example. Other Regs for example have some specific Regs which they will join to get an empty lobby.
What you mentioned that no one is sitting other regs on purpose is just wrong. Maybe it is not as often as it should be but i think the more Regs that come the more often this will happen.

*With the current lobby situation it can be profitable to join a reg if you only have 0% ROI or even with -0,5% because after joining your chance for the next empty lobby is much higher so your chance for the next Fish is much higher... so more future EV.*

All of this would be dramatically reduced if there would be unlimited lobbies.


The next point is you arguing that with unlimited lobbies it would be easy for a 200 Reg to have 3 games running all the time after a little while. This dosnt make any sense to me.
With the current system in general there will be more games than with the unlimited system because of reg vs reg (same time sit mostly). I think this is a clear fact. Agree?

So right now a 200-300 reg has not always 3 games running. Then how could it be possible, if change to unlimited, that he always has 3 games running but the total number of games goes down.

The next point is you mentioning more regs so we need less lobbies = LOL.
Let me explain it:
Back in the FTP days there were like 5-10 open lobbies at the 200 limit. I dont remember exactly. So the chance to get a fish was 10-20%. Today i can name you ~50 or more 200 Regs. On prime times there will be 30+ empty lobbies and with every month it would get worse. Now how many fishies would you get?
We have to be very careful that it will not become another HU-Cash, which in the current state is (almost) dead...


* This brings me to an improvement which will also increase the reg vs reg action.
Give the player who joins second the chance to automatically get the next empty lobby. Maybe with a check box in the registration window: [ ] take next empty lobby.

[DarkSide11]

Originally Posted by PS Walmsley

However, we do realise that the smallest stakes Sit & Gos may be so popular that it is difficult to register before they start. If this is happening, please let us know and we will investigate. If necessary we could add one or two additional concurrent registrations.

'Automatically try to register to identical tournaments if this one is already full' option covers this. Its regs that are fighting over tables at higher stakes that seems to be causing problems.

[nochtm]

Originally Posted by att

Give the player who joins second the chance to automatically get the next empty lobby. Maybe with a check box in the registration window: [ ] take next empty lobby.

+1

and DO NOT add more lobbies please !!!

[emotionx]

I much prefer 3-4 lobbies against unlimited. No one discussed this yet. Fastcolt is right, rewarding poker players profit by having better lobby taking skills is beyond retarded, hell, i play poker.. not " pick da lobby " competition

[fastcolt]

Originally Posted by att

First off all i think your observation of the situation is wrong.
There are many Regs who are chasing other regs if they see them in the lobby. Some to the point where they dont care who is sitting in the lobby, just to get an empty seat. Likes of Harthor and Siervos for example. Other Regs for example have some specific Regs which they will join to get an empty lobby.
What you mentioned that no one is sitting other regs on purpose is just wrong. Maybe it is not as often as it should be but i think the more Regs that come the more often this will happen.


the harthor and siervos part, Yes, now name 5 more.
Now look at harthor his graph/stats and look at sifosis his graph
Keep in mind that most people have insane respect for harthor and think his game is one of the greatest in the world in sts.

Which of the two graphs would you rather have? which kind of behavior do these graphs inspire? regwarring/ chasing out regs or chopping everyone and waiting for lobbys?

*With the current lobby situation it can be profitable to join a reg if you only have 0% ROI or even with -0,5% because after joining your chance for the next empty lobby is much higher so your chance for the next Fish is much higher... so more future EV.*

This is just delusional, the time u take up registering someone else sits the lobby. Perhaps your from canada and be lucky enough to wake up at the same time while pretty much all of europe (in other words, the entire reg pool pretty much, goes to bed. and therefor u perhaps only have to be faster then 5 other (most likely canadian since everyone else is asleep) regs ) while the rest of europe has to maybe be "quicker" then 20+ regs, because of the timezones, and maybe your biased to believe its fine like this. Me personally however if i align my dayrythm with the opposite of what is considered normal over here, i crush hard when i don't i have like 0.5/1% roi months. I've tested it over multiple months and I'm positive that being canadian is at least a small advantage.

All of this would be dramatically reduced if there would be unlimited lobbies.

what exactly would be? you think harthor or servos wouldn't sit regfish anymore? i think they very much so still would, the only thing that would be different is you would be able to reg and at least have a chance to get a game, and play less regs if you wish to do so, if you don't you could possibly have guys moving up get tempted into open sitting and be able to sit them better.

The next point is you arguing that with unlimited lobbies it would be easy for a 200 Reg to have 3 games running all the time after a little while. This dosnt make any sense to me.
With the current system in general there will be more games than with the unlimited system because of reg vs reg (same time sit mostly). I think this is a clear fact. Agree?

No i strongly disagree, i think its very hard to have 3 games running at all times right now because you can't register continuously, i play like 10 game session then i have to go back to inspecting the lobby and try and reg quicker then the other regs. which is just ridiculous.

The next point is you mentioning more regs so we need less lobbies = LOL.
Let me explain it:
Back in the FTP days there were like 5-10 open lobbies at the 200 limit. I dont remember exactly. So the chance to get a fish was 10-20%. Today i can name you ~50 or more 200 Regs. On prime times there will be 30+ empty lobbies and with every month it would get worse. Now how many fishies would you get?
We have to be very careful that it will not become another HU-Cash, which in the current state is (almost) dead...

Im not necessairly agreeing with unlimited but MORE then 2 is definitely my preference, again if you sit 2nd you should be able to have the ability to choose who u play correct? however, if you reg 1 sec later then some other reg u sit second and are FORCED to play a reg SINCE YOU CANT SIT OUT LIKE HU CASH. Once you opensit you can't decline action in husngs which is why it is not "in danger of becoming like hu cash" or "dead", like so many people keep on spouting nonsense about. The point I'm trying to make and isn't getting across is, yes maybe it'll take a while before u have a game running esp if 20 people in front of you in lobby but if theres always a lobby open that you can join as soon as u get action u can easily keep on regging without having to monitor the lobbies all the time. And the people who want to hunt the reg fish can still do so. While now, everyone is letting someone else do the dirty work. This is not a personal attack to you, but your post reads a lot like, no plz keep it this way, now i just have to reg quicker then harthor and harthor chases the weak regs away so its nut nut good for me. What people also forget is on ftp, a bunch of fish opensat and very very weak regs where just waiting to get stacked in lobby.


* This brings me to an improvement which will also increase the reg vs reg action.
Give the player who joins second the chance to automatically get the next empty lobby. Maybe with a check box in the registration window: [ ] take next empty lobby.
This idea i like.

I really don't hear any valid arguments against more lobbies.
Really think about it, i really don't see the downside at all.
Despite also wanting what is best of course, like I'm sure everyone wants to.

Its proven fact pretty much that the regs who have the highest roi and the biggest win rate/least variance are the ones who do not chase other regs out of lobbies, but instead bum hunt hard.
Your so afraid of turning it into HU CASH (which can't happen either way) but if you truly are, then why do you prefer a system (the current one) that is MOST beneficial to those who bum hunt and avoid regs as much as possible? can you answer that even?

Edit fwiw; I'm only debating considering ST's i have no clue about the turbo/reg speed situation and don't want to pretend like i do.