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 08-08-2012, 12:18 PM #16 Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ithaca Posts: 5,019 Re: math advice needed ^ this all looks right, but i do better with pictures: if villain plays jam-or-fold vs a minraise, and jams some top % of hands, and we want to play minraise-or-fold: - bet-fold is best up to a jam freq of 0.5 - open-fold is best up to a jam freq of 0.82 - then bet-call is best above that open-shove is never best if he calls w/ the nash range, obv (b/c Q4 isnt a nash jam at 9.7bbs). so, what about open-shoving? we have: EV(bet-call if villain jams top X% of hands) = EV(open-shove if villain calls with top X% of hands) (ducy?) so we can use the same graph to evaluate the open-shoving option... Last edited by yaqh; 08-08-2012 at 12:40 PM. Reason: card removal yadayada
 08-09-2012, 08:57 AM #17 Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ithaca Posts: 5,019 Re: math advice needed following up on that, i get as above, black = b/c red = b/f green = open-fold blue = open-jam
 08-09-2012, 09:48 AM #18 old hand     Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Micros. Don't trust my advice :) Posts: 1,254 Re: math advice needed me be trippin' to that That's probably how mers came up with rofl...
 08-09-2012, 11:13 AM #19 veteran     Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Berlin Posts: 3,492 Re: math advice needed yaqh, that must be the most beautiful thing i have ever seen.
08-09-2012, 04:58 PM   #20
Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: ithaca
Posts: 5,019

Quote:
 Originally Posted by ohly yaqh, that must be the most beautiful thing i have ever seen.
glad u like it i went ahead and automated the generation of those graphs, so...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Benjamin the Donk me be trippin' to that That's probably how mers came up with rofl...
well, of course, it's EV(limping) and EV(minraise) when villain's not playing shove-or-fold vs it that gives difficulty...

08-09-2012, 05:09 PM   #21
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Join Date: Mar 2011
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by yaqh following up on that, i get as above, black = b/c red = b/f green = open-fold blue = open-jam
Tonight, I'll blaze up an extra potent concoction of BC green and then analyze this graph properly. Until then I will not comment.

08-10-2012, 06:28 AM   #22
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by yaqh glad u like it i went ahead and automated the generation of those graphs, so...
so... in that case can you make a few more?

At 10bbs I'd be interested in:
{K2o, Q9s, QTo, JTs, JTo, 22}
if you can do other stack depths then I'd be interested in:
12bb
{K7o,K2s,QJo, QTs}
at 15bb
{A2o, A2s, KTo}

Obv if that's too many pick and choose your favorites

Thanks!

 08-10-2012, 06:44 AM #23 old hand     Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Micros. Don't trust my advice :) Posts: 1,254 Re: math advice needed This thread started off pretty badly but is going on a nice tangent atm. @Yaqh - how did you create those graphs? Any chance you can post info so we can make our own?
08-10-2012, 07:51 AM   #24
Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: ithaca
Posts: 5,019

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Benjamin the Donk @Yaqh - how did you create those graphs? Any chance you can post info so we can make our own?
So the first graph above shows how our EV of each action depends on one variable of Villain's play. This is pretty much the same thing, except we plot the EVs as a function of two of Villain's frequencies, so we get a 3D graph that looks something like:

But if we view it from above, straight down, it's easy to identify which surface is the highest at each point. I can post code if you want, but it's not super interesting -- a loop in bash to make the numbers and some matlab stuff to make the plot. You wouldn't be able to run it immediately yourself since the bash code references another small program which I use to calculate the equities and the size of ranges with card removal and isn't publicly available.

 08-10-2012, 09:07 AM #25 old hand     Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Micros. Don't trust my advice :) Posts: 1,254 Re: math advice needed ok no worries. I though it was excel or something but then starting thinking matlab/mathmatica once you posted that nice looking 3d graph above. Looks cool though, nice work
08-10-2012, 09:19 AM   #26
Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: ithaca
Posts: 5,019

Quote:
 Originally Posted by coffeeyay so... in that case can you make a few more?
http://imageshack.us/g/819/qhtdat15.png/

weird artifacts in some of them. some of that might be weirdness in matlab's surface intersection routines, but generally id say it just means its really close.

let us know what you find

Last edited by yaqh; 08-10-2012 at 09:24 AM.

 08-10-2012, 04:35 PM #27 veteran     Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Aberdeen, Scotland Posts: 2,707 Re: math advice needed awesome stuff I'll be looking through it tomorrow to try to eek out some spots. My first guesss is that the artifacts aren't due to matlab but maybe more due to the specific ordering scheme for the top X% creating nonlinearities. Like if there is a spot were (random example) K3>Q9>K2>Q8 then it will create a discontinuity where the equity decreased even though the range got wider (where K2 is included).
 08-10-2012, 06:08 PM #28 Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ithaca Posts: 5,019 Re: math advice needed Yea I think you're right. Btw, ordering is by preflop all-in equity vs a single random hand.
08-10-2012, 07:46 PM   #29
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Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by yaqh Yea I think you're right. Btw, ordering is by preflop all-in equity vs a single random hand.
vs a single random hand? you mean vs the range {100%} right?

 08-10-2012, 07:48 PM #30 Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: ithaca Posts: 5,019 Re: math advice needed yes

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