What hands do you call an openshove with 20-25bb? Do you call with the same since eq needed between 20-25bb is only 0.5% difference?

I think people push mostly 22-55, but from what Ive seen in my database some push A-rags, A-nuts, 66-88, and some total air. From 100%, how much would you weight each range to?

Fish
22-55 :: 80%
66-88 :: 5%
A-rag :: 5%
A-nuts :: 5%
Air :: 5%


Reg
22-55 :: 100%

Against a complete random I think it isn't weighted so much towards 22 - 55. Most fish don't know that jamming these is so good and show up with nutted hands and air a bit more often. If i had to guess vs a random I'd say:

22 - 55: 35%
66-88: 20%
A-rag: 15%
A-nuts: 20%
air: 10%

Against a reg its 97.66% 22- 55, 2.34% misclick/lifetilt imo

If estimated ranges is on track it means that we should call more Ax against fish and against regs we can call 75s+ and 76o+ ?

75s and 76o are both behind a 22 - 55 range, the f is wrong with you. 76s, 78s, 98s are a call if you think their range is only 22 - 55, 9Ts allows for 12 combos of a random Ax to still have 50% equity.

edit: ok maybe not behind if you need 48% equity, but if you add in a hand like A8o you're crushed so you'd need to know that their range is exactly 22 - 55 and only that

We only need 48% eq at 25bb, and 76o has 48.85% vs 22-55 (reg). Just to show the point of calling lighter against regs. Just to streatch it further, 86o is 48.35%. So that means we can call alot weider against a reg an not just 98s+, right?

When a reg openshoves small pocket pairs and you snap call with a higher (suited) connector - that you need to be dealt at the right time - he can easily adapt and just add better aces to his openshoving range 20-25bb deep.

if i ever meet someone who doesn't fold 95% to my openjams i will think of you and will openjam QJs
what i want to say is the following: it is pretty easy for him to make a note that you call openjams with a super exploitative range and hence can adjust a bit, you on the other hand would need to take a note that someone saw you doing this and then guess wether or not calling 86o will still be good in the future. for that reason i would not exaggerate and try to stick to the more reasonable adjustments against regs and call the decent suited connected hands, not 76o

Arson: No regs are ever open jamming air above 20bb, and def not 2% of their open jams that deep are going to be air. I bet you cant find one hand in your database where you have open jammed air above 20bb yourself. If you can; Ill buy you a beer. If you doctor a HH I will know.

I agree with bolded.

I think that we can actually completely exclude the air% from this sample if we are trying to create the best possible calling range vs the average player.

If you look through your database and find the hands where villain has open jammed air, if you go through the rest of the game I am pretty sure you will find that villain is a complete retard(open jammer). I dont think Ive ever seen a random slightly loosing fish randomly open jam j2o for 20bb after playing 'normally' for a few hands. Also our database is going to be skewed towards these air hands because we are going to be calling wider in game after he open jams a few times(so we see more air at showdown than other hands).

Because we are trying to guestimate shoving ranges and the optimal calling ranges for those shoving ranges, which is all based on TINY sample sizes, I think that we need to exclude air from open jamming range because they are statistical outliers that can skew our data in a major way. We can actually predict these ingame also, and therefore we can make a more informed decision than just using our 'standard' range vs a random readless open jam 20-25bb.

Yeah but some regs have 66 in their open jamming range, I hate it as a standard, but I have seen it, and to be honest I would be definitely open jamming 66 against you. Then our equity when we call with marginal hands gets ****ed right up and not only do we make a loosing play, we look incredibly stupid as well.

Actually, based on this thread, next time we simulsit, Im probably just going to open jam my entire value range vs you and expect you to call it off with 65o+. [(joking)...or maybe not?]

I only have 8 hands in my small DB where villain shoved at exactly 25BB and we saw showdown. Those hands were:

ATo
33
65s
K9o
J8o
84o (lol, I had KK)
88
KQo

So only 1 of those hands is junk.

I have 47 hands from 20-25BB and can't be bothered writing them out, but there's things like 55, KTs, A3o, Ato, QKo, JJ (I didn't look at them all)

The best part is that most people think AK is a call at 25bb vs an openshove from reg, but 86o is actually ALOT better! (And I think most call even AJo+ to an openshove) What I mean is that I think the calling ranges are skewed and can be improved, both agaisnt regs and fish.

The second thing is that I think 99% of the regs will think your a retard if they see you calling with the extreme example of 86o+ and they wont adjust. It will just tilt the **** out of them if they loose, and esp with my new SN I think I won like 3BI just there by putting you on life tilt!


NMY comment: I would sit you for life if I saw you call with that hand and win. It would be at the top of my notes and I will be on my F-game..

I like being able to (more or less) open sit lobbies. It might be more -EV to make an optimal call in that spot if it means you have a solid reg who is accepting rematches and sitting all your lobbies for a few weeks.

If they're shoving low PP's only I think the middling SCs are best:

JTs vs 22-55: 53% JTs
AKs vs 22-55: 49% AKs

Obviously they're both still a call with the money in the pot though, but when you know you will have 2 overcards anyway, it's better to be able to make a straight go both ways.

This is wrong. Even if we only fold 80% to open-jams, villain will have lower EV open-jamming QJs than playing it normally (except if he plays very poorly postflop I guess).

Im pretty sure he didn't literately mean 95%, he was just using it as an expression and wrote it without thinking twice. No one keeps a "fold to open jam over 20bb%" stat on their hud.