Olivier Busquet posted some interesting thoughts on this subject:

The happiest moments in my life are when I'm spending time with family and friends, creating and developing interpersonal relationships. If this sounds cliche, it is. But it's cliche because so many people say it and so many people say it because it's so universally true. We are, by nature, social animals; its an essential part of what it means to be human. The experience of truly connecting with another person, even if just for an instant, of profoundly understanding or feeling profoundly understood, is one of the most, if not the most fulfilling human experiences I can think of. As much as I love to compete, I also intensely value collaboration, of being part of a community of people whose interests and desires are wider and bigger than my own; whose problems require a diverse set of opinions and actions to overcome. I want to be part of something that has goals that can't be accomplished by just one person, where working together and depending on one another is necessary for success. I see the poker world, on the other hand, as a microcosm of a society with opposing values; one that is obsessed with the idea that life is a materialistic and competitive pursuit of narrow and individual goals. It is a reflection of a society where money has become the ultimate value, where the people we celebrate aren't the most compassionate or even the most intelligent or productive, but simply the wealthiest and most famous. Fame has even become a goal in it of itself and separate from wealth. The internet, and specifically social media, despite their many wonderful uses, feed this excessive fame-seeking enormously. Poker, sadly, fits right into that picture; win a big tournament and instantly become well-known, obviously win a lot of money, and the greatest part: anybody can do it. It's a sad reflection of the new American Dream. The goals aren't anymore to work hard, provide a stable life for your family, better opportunities for your children and to actively participate in your community. They have become do whatever you need to get as rich and famous as you can while making the least effort possible. This isn't necessarily the mindset of any individual poker player just as it's not necessarily the mindset of any individual person in our wider society. I'm also not trying to preach to anyone or judge the poker world, I have been just as much a part of this dynamic as anyone. I just understand that for me personally, its important that I be a part of something that is bigger than my personal enrichment, and that the poker life is not fulfilling enough for me over the long term.

Full blog entry: http://olivierbusquet.com/Blog/

you don't have to feel guilty because your ability to earn money is a lot more than you want. Comparing you with normal(?) people is meaningless for you imo. Lets say you already have enough money for yourself, your family or your friends. do you think you are gonna have a job? why? are you still gonna play poker?

For most people, having a job is necessary because they need constant income for a living but some people also have their job because they like what they are doing.
If you really think that you are stealing money from fish and feeling guilty about them, this is a huge problem for you because your doing what you don't like to do to earn money. I sometimes feel guilty because I can earn money easier than my friends by playing poker (I don't play poker for a living though) but I don't feel guilty at all about my opponents.

How you spend your time/money is totally different question. It depends on the goal of your life.

With poker becoming a known part of your life you have to learn to deal with people preaching and having strong opinions on a subject that they actually have no idea about.

People often do things that "benefit society" with no intention of doing good, they just need a job. Garbage men perform a vital role to society, I doubt many of them do it out of the goodness of their heart. They aren't on morally higher ground because there is no intent.

I work for an NPO which is nice, but I'd still work here if we jsut manufactured rat poison. I like getting paid, and I like my job

^ PD, what's the NPO? National Pussy Org?

As for me, I'm in a difficult situation. I like being a consultant, pays well, I make my own hours (just like poker guys), work isn't terribly hard, and no company politics since I'm not an employee, all awesome. But long-term, I think I can make more and quicker $$$ with poker, but if I leave my day job and internet poker goes busto then what? I don't want to grind a living playing live, too much traveling for me then. I guess I need to get more consistent before making any move, but end of year, not to put timelines, I'd like to do one or the other. I want it to be poker but we'll see...just so much uncertainty wrt to online poker's future.

Mrb, a day job can be a grind, but you can be a consultant like me and keep similar hours/climate as playing poker...further, much more security both short- and long-term with a day job, every month you get paid..further, you can work your way up the corporate ladder as an employee or if a consultant work towards starting your own business, so there are certainly ways to make it big as an employee, as a consultant, or as a poker pro. I don't know what my point is, just that maybe long-term can you see yourself grinding in poker at age 50 or something? Or do you want to make enough $$$ for a life roll and go to other endeavours? tough choices really...

Thanks I<3Poker.
I really connect with what Olivier Busquet said. This:

Yeah, thats a hard part for me. My life values collides pretty hard with poker and at the moment I dont have much other choices that would bring me the same amount of money. Its such a struggle every day. Maybe thats what I need to find a solution?

I like that. Made me feel better when I thought of it like that.

This is the dream. But its so far away that it feels so unreal which bring no emotions that empowers me strive for it.

I don't feel guilty at all, but I try to share the money with the people that i care about.
I also give some money to charity. Maybe yuou should do it as well if you don't do it already. There are a lot of people who work harder but also lots of people they do nothing at all and have rich parents etc...

I think the only thing I'd feel guilt about is if I got repeatedly sat by a person with a gambling problem. I've got no interest whatsoever in profiting off degens and I really don't care that this is -EV.

In fact I'd probably time down repeatedly to annoy them into not sitting me.

But I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt over using my brains to make money playing a game that's completely above-board, more power to me for doing something I like at the same time.

I doubt Kasparov cries over his tourney checks. Not comparing myself to Kasparov, btw.

And I've never heard of a doctor who truly loved his work grousing over how unfortunate it is he's clocking six figures yearly and if he likes his job, gg.

Well a doctors job is to help others in trouble so you really can't compare that to OPs issue.

And at the same time surgeons turn down "risky surgeries" everyday because they want to keep their stats up, with no regard for what is best for the patients. Just because you help people, doesn't mean you aren't selfish.

obv

A few thoughts:

- If you donate your time or even your money to good causes, you're very likely going to be doing more than 99% of people for the better of society in your collective life.

- I don't buy that poker players provide nothing, but that jobs like waiter, manufacturing, office manager and many many other commonly "accepted" jobs are somehow providing real value to society. The companies people commonly work for do many negative things in society, an example might be a plastics factory an employee working at polluting the air and worsening the quality of air in the local area. Is that a noble, value contributing job? I don't buy that.

- Poker is entertainment. Stop feeling sorry for the fish that lost 5k, he's probably a doctor, trust fund kid, or some other status that has a lot more money than you and I ever will. Or maybe he's a processor that made 50+ million and donated 1 million at the table (Ginette22). If you didn't know his story, you'd feel bad for the guy? What about all of Guy's sns, you felt bad for them because you pictured some sad degenerate at the table losing millions to high stakes pros? Guys, this is entertainment for kazillion airs.

- Yes, there are some degens that lose everything, that steal more than they have or borrow more than they have and lose it all. People do that with homes all the time too, and cars that they shouldn't buy. People do that with casino games, they do it with electronics, they do it with coin collections, doll collections, book collections, rare art and a whole lot more. People throw themselves down a black hole in a lot of ways in society. I don't think the solution is to feel bad about poker or label poker as bad, when for a vast majority of players it is not a black hole "borrow way more than you have" experience. Besides, most scams we see in this forum are just young lazy kid that found poker for all the wrong reasons (short cut to millions, same way ppl approach investing, or their first business, or any "loophole" they see in society). Also, most scams could be prevented by the people that loan the money.

- Other people could do your job. In fact, if the hard working, productive, intelligent, straight path members of society ever realized how truly rewarding poker can be for a smart person that puts in 40+ hours a week every week to playing and working hard, nobody here would still have a job in the poker world.

- Extending the last point, many people just have a stereotypical negative outlook on poker, one that if you ask for specifics it is quite flawed and ignorant and not open to learning the truth. So somebody that views your profession in such a flawed and naive way is somehow more noble than you? Again, I don't buy it.

- If you realize what the leaders of this world have and always have done, and what the businesses in many industries, such as stock trading, banking, weapons manufacturing, oil, steel, automotive, clothing and many, many more have done at various times, you would see how dirty the world truly is. I'm big on mentioning how dirty a lot of the casinos pretending to care about poker are in the world, and how dirty the regulators of poker are, pretending to safeguard and audit funds but not doing their job time and again, but the world itself is a very dirty place and if you don't acknowledge this you're lying to yourself.

At the end of the day, poker is not a bad thing. It may not be the biggest contributing positive to society, but you can change that by simply volunteering your time and donating 10-15% of your profit each year to charity, if you so choose. If you don't, that's fine too, you're no worse than many of the leaders in this world, who were in a position to do a lot more than just about every poker player combined currently is.

Be real though, you're only lying to yourself and causing undue negativity if you believe you're a bad person because you play poker. Society can be a sick place that judges you in incredibly simplistic and "retarded" ways, based on where you were born, who your parents were, the color of your skin or by one of your many personal choices.

PD makes some good points here I must admit. Very true.

Can't agree more.

I consult for a well known mining company that mines uranium, diamonds and a few metals. There is value in metals, but diamonds are destructive to many African countries, and uranium is hit or miss, nuclear energy is good I guess maybe, but nuclear weapons ofc are not...further, these mining companies pay off local guerilla groups (Africa mainly) or gov't officials (i.e. S.America, C. Asia) and corrupt their way to making their billions, raping the land, destroying villages and relocating people from their homes with little warning and no compensation, and I get some trickle down $$$ from it so I'm responsible also. So as Ryan says, you think poker players don't contribute to society, well, there are MANY professions and industries like mining that downright decay society...****in politicians, lawyers, corrupt doctors, and businessmen get successful by stepping on others, and these are all seen as legit and some as 'noble' enterprises...I am pretty sure I do more harm than good as a consultant helping the big machine of the mining industry, as a poker player, I don't feel that way.

But I do think a poker player should do some giving back to society, as we are fairly useless to society. I donate a set amount to Hospital for Sick Kids every month, used to feed homeless, so I give back a little and feel a bit better about the nastiness that is legit economy and capitalism.

Well many of the jobs you point out don't really advance society but more or less keep it going. Very few jobs actually advance the world.

Poker does not contribute much to society but does sports contribute much to society? I guess entertainment helps keep the world going and have something to do that is fun. Guess it can't be all work and no play or can it?

What this question comes down to is imo realizing and/or accepting that every human decision is based on egoistic incentives. People don't act with the purpose to make other people feel better, but rather because they feel satisfied that they've added value to a persons life.

The classic example is all the donating to charity, wich in most cases is preventing poor societies from developing, that people do to keep their conscience in chess.


My main point is that everyone that has or could have the opportunity to make a living out of poker should do so, without hesitation, because that's what everyone else would've done. It's the human nature.