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Extension on theory post: dry flops. Extension on theory post: dry flops.

01-12-2011 , 12:54 PM
Cause I'm such a nice guy, and way less people responded to my last post than I expected (thus I'm not all that afraid of the information leak...)

Considering Aka for series of posts..."how to level war", lol.

PPS, sorry for the asterics. I pasted this from my notepad app on my phone, and it put them at every paragraph marker...

Playing dry flops
I'm talking about those super dry flops. The ones where peoples' stackoff ranges are either ******ed or near non-existent. The ones where one guy with CR/call ace high while another will CC top pair. Where you think to yourself "gee, should I fold top pair top kicker here? He either has air or two-pair+ here...I sure wish there was a flush draw."
The spots that keep most poker players up at night, because sometimes you're just...never...good, and you want to exploitable fold the top of your range.*

First, what flops am I talking about?
---the flops where, if you and I wrote out a stackoff range for a readless villain, it would be vastly different. Ditto on his CR range.*

A72r
K83r
J22r
JJ2r

You know them, and you probably even know that you should take avid player-notes on how villains approach these spots. Why is this an extension of my last article?

Because it is my opinion that, if you don't already know the answer to that question, you are thinking about poker incorrectly.*

In my 3bet/4bet article, I outlined what polarizing and merging means, and when to do both. I ended it by saying "extrapolate, and apply too all poker". Well, here ya go. It's really all pretty easy if you start REALLY thinking about ranges. Yours and your villain's.*
Again, this is all IMHO. I am not isildur1. I'm not even Mers. Everything I say could be bull.*

Effective stack size: t1,500 (75bbs)
Hero is in the BTN with XX
Hero raises t40 to t60
Villain calls.*
Pot: t120
Flop: K72r

Villain checks.*
Hero bets t60
Villain raises to t180
Hero?

You have to consider your villain. Is this likely to be a merged or polarized range?*


Quick note: not all players fall under one of these three types. Some people are fish, even regs, when it comes to this spot. This is about people trying to balance their range, and how to level war. If someone plays these boards ABC, just cbet 100%, take it down most of the time, and figure out how wide he peels and adjust your cbet and 2barrel frequency accordingly. Basically, I want to focus on when you face aggression in this spot.*

Merged range
We know this guy. The guy that just turned TPWK into a bluff. Maybe middle pair. Maybe A2. There are tons of subcategories of this player, and you should adjust to each differently. What we want to focus on is the guy that, in ABC poker, had equity with his hand against our cbetting range, but is crushed by our value stackoff range, or even just our flatting range.*

If readless, you might consider what he 3bets. Try to extrapolate from the rest of his game as to whether he is likely to merge or turn air into a bluff, CC a value range, and CR sets and K7.*
So, how to we respond to him?
This is a lot like the guy who is likely to call too many 3bets preflop. It depends how wide this valuerange is... But here's a general idea:
- if you can't call the CR, your hand doesn't matter. He isn't just calling with much value, because his CR range contains all value. Thus, betting for thin value is pretty dumb on the flop, unless your equity in the pot is less than the equity gained by cbetting. This doesn't happen as much HU as it does FR though, as inducing will almost always skew an aggressive players range to air.*
Why bet 7x-QQ, K3-K6, etc. (assuming he doesn't CR 7x and 88-QQ...in which case just adjust your valuerange) on this board against this guy? He either CRs the best hand or folds the worst. This isn't PLO, his air equity share isn't enormous. You can reevaluate based on his turn betting tendancies after checking back.*
So, bet your KT+ and enjoy killer equity.*
And polarize by betting air and double-barrelling a ton. He can't call three streets if he's CRing Any Kx or better...
However, that's an absurd air-to-value ratio on your end, dependent on your PFR. If you are raising about 60% on the btn though, you have a ton of two-broadway hands and suited hands. What does that matter?*
- suited hands: there are three suites out there. If you have a backdoor flush draw, of which there are three, over 20% of the turns will allow you to double-barrel with equity.*
- broadway hands: first of all, your opponents CC range is mostly Ax. He has 7x and small PPs in his range, but Ax is combinatorically a huge part of that range. So every card that doesn't pair him is scary. That said, when you have QT; any 9, Q, T, or J will likely hand you the pot.*

Remember, what your opponent is doing is stupid, because you can't continue with worse. Don't make it a good play by leveling into a call when you know his range is wide and not polarized. You make his play optimal. Also, remember that for adjusting to regs. Merging here IS a legit adjustment given the right metagame.*

So...
Either fold air or keep going with a range that dominates him. And when he floats, he has a ton of air. Double barrel relentlessly.*

Polarized villains
First of all, polarizing here is difficult, and few people know how to do it well. Most of your opponents who do polarize here will have too much air in their range.*

These are the villains CRing air and monsters (a loose definition) and CCing a wide thin-value range. This is because our betting range has too much air.*

Because of this, there is an enormous amount of hand equivilency. If villain is CRing air or KJ+ (and he would 3bet AK...), ace-high is the same as K9 (as ace-high is likely a CC by villain). There are a million ways to adjust to this, and the optimum strategy is villain dependent.*
- tighten up your cbet% to the hands we discussed as a possible double-barrel range before. We can flat with them, improve often in turn to combat double-barrels, and bet turn if he is just CFing turn with air. Also bet-call a wide value range. Merge. Other than his chances of sucking out, 2x is the same as 7x is the same as Kx...
(note, his proper adjustment is to have a merged CR raise, like our first villain). Keep your monsters in this range, or create a polarized 3bet range (very small raise...) of super premium hands and air. This is high variance, but sick good.*

Most players can't adjust their postflop ranges...so you'll rarely have to adjust to an ajustment made by your villain...but remember that everything is exploitable. Make sure he is still polarized.*

Preflop play was easy, as I think my last post explained...
Flop play is harder, but it's the same principles!*
Unfortunately, to know the optimum line to take against a polarized 3better, you need to make a plan for the entire hand that takes his 2barrel range and even 3barrel range into consideration...maybe I'll post something like that in the future. But maybe I'll keep the turn and river as my edge...lol.*

Time for work. Hope this helps some people view poker more correctly.*

Pretty simple stuff right?
Well, that's poker.*

Last edited by ChicagoRy; 01-12-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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01-12-2011 , 01:30 PM
Good read, thanks
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01-12-2011 , 06:12 PM
Thank you for yet another good reading material.
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01-12-2011 , 07:12 PM
I think the key in these spots is to make sure you're rebluffing the average opponent you know nothing about (at most levels the average opponent just bluffs these boards way too often).

If you're snap folding by default early in these spots, it's likely the largest leak you have in this situation and you should rethink it.

Otherwise, as Ronin mentions throughout the article, the theme is always "stop and think about what he is doing and the best reaction to that." You'll often then find the correct play and you'll be surprised how often mistakes are made simply because you failed to give the situation and honest assessment.
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01-12-2011 , 08:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRy
I think the key in these spots is to make sure you're rebluffing the average opponent you know nothing about (at most levels the average opponent just bluffs these boards way too often).

If you're snap folding by default early in these spots, it's likely the largest leak you have in this situation and you should rethink it.

Otherwise, as Ronin mentions throughout the article, the theme is always "stop and think about what he is doing and the best reaction to that." You'll often then find the correct play and you'll be surprised how often mistakes are made simply because you failed to give the situation and honest assessment.
i didn't read all of OPs post, just glimpsed through it.

you kinda polarize yourself when you rebluff in these dry rainbow flops, i like just floating them and firing/bluffing turn just like i would do with monsters.
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01-12-2011 , 09:39 PM
for the record, i never c/r bluff dry flops. pretty terrible imo.
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01-12-2011 , 09:44 PM
Quote:
didn't read all of OPs post, just glimpsed through it.

you kinda polarize yourself when you rebluff in these dry rainbow flops, i like just floating them and firing/bluffing turn just like i would do with monsters.
Doesn't matter how unbalanced your overall strategy is, the fact is if you flat call they follow up with a bluff a tremendous amount of time compared to the times they go after yet another rebluff when you come over the top of them on the flop with a reraise.

I'm asserting that they are so heavy towards not having it than having it in these spots that your best bet is often not to float the flop but to rebluff.

I'm talking about the average single and double digit buyin unknowns though, not thinking players.

Also, since you didn't read the entire OP we could be on a different page here, OP's major example is Hero raising in position, getting flat called then check raised on a very dry flop.

The strategy I'm advocating at the lower and mid levels is not only applied to dry 3 card flops but (even more so imo) applied to dry paired boards.

I can't tell you how many times I've been (or seen somebody) check raised on a 227 type non FD board early on in a match and the ratio of bluff to legitimate hands is so heavily favored towards bluffs that if you're just laying down by default here I think you should adjust.

Curious to see if others disagree with that claim.
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01-12-2011 , 09:49 PM
ehhh from my memory there was a time when I could auto-3betbluff unknowns on those boards between 30$-110$ stakes I think? and they would fold nearly every time. But after a while it seemed like I got shoved on or flatted way too much so I stopped and I rarely do it vs fish anymore(as a default). Might just be that fish stopped doing it that much as I moved further up. Tbh I can't remember the last time a fish folded to my 3betbluff on a dry flop but I guess I just don't do it enough, should try it out again.
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01-12-2011 , 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaqh
for the record, i never c/r bluff dry flops. pretty terrible imo.
this x56473825647
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01-13-2011 , 09:07 AM
man, you just taught me how to play poker with these 2 articles.
thanks

edit: btw if you don't mind your edge disappearing you should write a book i'd snap order collector's edition, rly.

Last edited by chocoloco; 01-13-2011 at 09:13 AM.
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01-13-2011 , 01:01 PM
Actually, I'm kinda workin on it. Lol.
Clearly don't have an offer with 2+2 publishing (ahem), but I'm a novelist by trade. Lol.
In the meantime, my coaching is better, lol.

Thanks for the feedback.
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01-13-2011 , 01:31 PM
Agreed with ChicagoRy... usually, I like to float against good players but reraise against fish.. obviously, reads will dictate more accurate plays but it's a default
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01-13-2011 , 02:14 PM
I liked your 3bet/4bet thread, and I like this too.

Thanks.
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01-13-2011 , 02:40 PM
Obviously, the most +EV play is not always the most balanced or least exploitable.
Sometimes, clicking back a minraise is the most profitable play in a vacuum.
Lol

But people have this misconception about multitablers...like we are robots playing for a marginal edge for pure value.
Sure, a ton of them are people who just can't win more than they do, give up, and just multitable.
There are definitely those that just figure out their ranges and understand how to shift their balance across 4 tables of HU. That's how I think of playing poker "perfectly", and that's what I shoot for. Yes, it costs EV in the microstakes against terrible players...but I've been targeting regs for this reason. In the long run, this is the approach that will make you the most money. It'll let you move up through stakes and not worry about "games drying up". 99% of regs are just terrible at poker, and it's because they have leered to play poker exploitably in order to beat fish for an extra few bucks an hour.
Not worth learning how to beat regs IMHO.
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01-13-2011 , 02:42 PM
Omg my phone is slow.
Not worth trading for learning how to beat regs IMHO.
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01-13-2011 , 02:44 PM
sigh.. I mean.. ok, you are probably good.
but there are no good regs below 110s. And most regs at 110s suck too. having "no game selection" below 110s doesn't really mean anything, it isn't much to brag about.. not in every third post of yours either way..

good articles though, I liked them.
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01-13-2011 , 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaqh
for the record, i never c/r bluff dry flops. pretty terrible imo.
care to elaborate? or are you specifically talking about playing against more thinking players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRy
Doesn't matter how unbalanced your overall strategy is, the fact is if you flat call they follow up with a bluff a tremendous amount of time compared to the times they go after yet another rebluff when you come over the top of them on the flop with a reraise.

I'm asserting that they are so heavy towards not having it than having it in these spots that your best bet is often not to float the flop but to rebluff.

I'm talking about the average single and double digit buyin unknowns though, not thinking players.

Also, since you didn't read the entire OP we could be on a different page here, OP's major example is Hero raising in position, getting flat called then check raised on a very dry flop.

The strategy I'm advocating at the lower and mid levels is not only applied to dry 3 card flops but (even more so imo) applied to dry paired boards.

I can't tell you how many times I've been (or seen somebody) check raised on a 227 type non FD board early on in a match and the ratio of bluff to legitimate hands is so heavily favored towards bluffs that if you're just laying down by default here I think you should adjust.

Curious to see if others disagree with that claim.
couldn't agree more, can't tell you how many times people think calling with almost zero showdown value is appropriate in response to what they see as a "likely bluff". Hands like Q high are an easy just over click back because the fold is easy, but what do you suppose we do with hands with v low equity vs his value range but relatively good equity against his bluffs like 33-66 and Ax Kx, i would have though 3 betting here isn't optimal against a polarised range but then blindly calling another street or two with them also kinda sucks, what's your guys standard in this spot readless?
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01-13-2011 , 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xereles
sigh.. I mean.. ok, you are probably good.
but there are no good regs below 110s. And most regs at 110s suck too. having "no game selection" below 110s doesn't really mean anything, it isn't much to brag about.. not in every third post of yours either way..

good articles though, I liked them.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
But it was a response to "you don't have to balance to beat fish", a true statement until you add the fact that my opponents are 2p2ers. Lol. The idea was to argue that it is very +ev to learn how to balance in the long run, and that you can still show solid ROI as you do it climbing through stakes.
Also, that learning balance allows you to 4 table without being a robot. Just trying to argue against misconceptions propagated even here by lazy people.
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01-13-2011 , 10:15 PM
+1 for not having to balance against fish.
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01-13-2011 , 10:50 PM
You also don't want to overrate your opponents, and that's not insulting at all.

I just remember when I first started playing people I knew were on 2p2 or HUSNG or "known names" and I would give them way too much credit in general and not stay as focused as I should on the potential available in front of me.

How it really relates to balancing is that in the end even the average 2p2 player (while stronger than the average player still) isn't likely to (re)exploit you in situations like this.

If they by default CR bluff a dry board early, they aren't likely to put 2/3 of their stack at risk rebluffing you right away. And the players that do that usually have uncontrolled/prone to heavy spew type aggression.
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01-13-2011 , 11:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raised by jews
+1 for not having to balance against anyone.
FYP
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