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Old 07-20-2012, 02:13 PM   #1
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5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

Hello,

Vilain opens raises 83% IP and he's very agressive postflop. When he's OOP he check raises 38% for exemple. He already raised / folded one or two time before this hand happened. It's my second 3bet. He folded to the first one. What do you think about my line on each street and especially OTR ?

    Poker Stars, $4.70 Buy-in (20/40 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 2 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    Hero (BB): 1,550 (38.8 bb)
    SB: 1,450 (36.3 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with K 3
    SB raises to 80, Hero raises to 222, SB calls 142

    Flop: (444) 2 Q J (2 players)
    Hero checks, SB checks

    Turn: (444) J (2 players)
    Hero bets 166, SB calls 166

    River: (776) T (2 players)
    Hero bets 1,162 and is all-in, SB folds

    Spoiler:
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    Old 07-20-2012, 03:24 PM   #2
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    Re: 5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

    Against this agro villain, why 3bet this hand?

    As played, I really like the river jam cuz villain is agro but knows where fold button is, prime target for this play. Turn, not sure that's where you want to be betting..easy raise for a lot of counter-aggressive villains given the pattern. I'd prefer betting flop, check turn and blast river. Or, bet flop, call his raise, c/c turn and blast river.
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    Old 07-21-2012, 10:28 AM   #3
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    Re: 5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

    I think flatting pre is better. any reads on how he plays TP and/or middle pair in raised or 3bet pots?
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    Old 07-24-2012, 04:47 PM   #4
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    Re: 5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

    I 3bet here as a bluff. I 3bet polarized since he's opening a wide range, he folds to 3bet, I don't put K3s in my flatting range (leak spotted ?) because I find it too hard to play oop (I flat K6s+) and the gameflow was good because I hadn't been 3betting a lot.

    Another read is that he's check calling with second pair type of hand. I don't know what he's doing with top pair type of hand at this point of the game.

    OTF I forgot to mention he fold almost never to cbet in single raised pot. He either check-raise (40%) or flat (40%). I have no read in 3bet pot since it's my second 3bet of the game and he folded to the first one. So my though was that cbetting here is a waste of money because this flop hits his range a lot, I have almost no equity if he has a pair and he will bluff me a lot with a draw either OTF or OTT.

    When he check backs I put him on a pair not to strong which doesn't want to face a check-raise, a draw which wants a free card. When the jack comes OTT, I bet small to price his draws and begin to put pressure if he has a queen or a pocket pair to fire OTR if a A,K or heart comes. I expect him to raise all his Jx type of hands to value my draws and my queens. When he calls I don't think he has a J and I put him on a little Q most likely (KQ,QT,Q9) and maybe some KT, AT, 9T and some pocket pairs like 88,99.

    OTR I follow my plan and overbet shove since it will be very difficult to call me even with a Q without too much of an history. I think he almost never has the J and it's in my 3bet PF/check flop range as well as some heart draws and AK.

    Is it a good thought process or EV- on the long run ?
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    Old 07-24-2012, 05:26 PM   #5
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    Re: 5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

    Looks to me like you're over thinking a bit. One thing that strikes me is you're allowing him to play perfectly by pricing him on the turn with a small bet and shoving any river, but l'enfant says he likes the river play. Can you elaborate on this? Feels like the T is the 2nd worse card in the deck, right after the A.

    +1 to flatting K3s pre over a minraise.

    I see you have a read that he "folds to 3bet", but you also say you haven't 3bet much. In general, since we're up against a loose and aggressive player (who likely isn't scared of playing with weak hands in big pots), my 3betting range would lean towards value hands. I would 3bet hands that I don't 3bet as a default, like JT, QTs, KTs, KJ, maybe even down to 9Ts, because I expect him to call with worse hands.

    Hands we can 3bet-bluff against a weak-tight player (J3s, Q5o, etc.), I would just fold vs an aggressive player. In summary: I'd merge my range more than polarize it at this point.
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    Old 07-24-2012, 05:49 PM   #6
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    Re: 5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

    OP-

    For starters thanks for the 2nd post, gives us good insight to what was actually going on with you as opposed to most "here's what happened, tell me the answer" with no further info posters

    2 Comments after breezing through the thread:

    1. I don't think you should 3bet a polarized range so much as expanding your value range and 3betting that more. Even though he folded the first time, from the frequencies you've provided it appears villain is loose-aggressive and going to be calling a lot oop. +EV to be playing the larger pots with your value hands than caught with your pants down on your Q3o 3bet bluff type hands if villain is aggro/loose.

    2. What are you trying to accomplish on the river (rhetorical)? Do you think that betting something along the lines of 666 chips on the river has the same effect as betting AI 1.16k given your line/thoughts/reads? This is a $5.00 game... I PROMISE Any Q, any J, any straight and any flush are snap-calling here. But I don't think villain can ever bluff you with a worse hand by raising if you were to throw out ~666. As played, I think your expected value may be higher with a ~666 as it accomplishes the same as your 1.16k AI (villain folds) just as often, and does not make you lose as much when villain shows up with a hand (if he raises, you're folding, if he calls, you lost - both ldo-BUT your tournie life is not over).
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    Old 07-25-2012, 11:07 AM   #7
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    Re: 5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

    why do you guys think that a merged 3betting range is better than a polarized one?
    He is very aggro postflop and folded to the first 3bet; so, why we expect him to call with worse hands rather than 4bet jam?
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    Old 07-25-2012, 04:51 PM   #8
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    Re: 5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lit' Pepito View Post
      Poker Stars, $4.70 Buy-in (20/40 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 2 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (BB): 1,550 (38.8 bb)
      SB: 1,450 (36.3 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with K 3
      SB raises to 80, Hero raises to 222, SB calls 142

      Flop: (444) 2 Q J (2 players)
      Hero checks, SB checks

      Turn: (444) J (2 players)
      Hero bets 166, SB calls 166

      River: (776) T (2 players)
      Hero bets 1,162 and is all-in, SB folds

      Spoiler:
      OP: I think this play is bad.

      What is villains range ? Mostly FD , as with Qx Jx he would have bet flop to get paid by flush draws.
      Your underbet on turn gives him odds to chase the flush and the river just completes it.

      Your read on villain also says he has a FD , as otherwise he would have bet the flop. Why did he not bet the flop ? Why did he called turn ?

      As played I would bet 100 on flop and 250 on turn and c/f river.

      Other guys who answered his question: this is a 7$ game , why are you talking about polarised 3bet ranges ?

      Also your reraise pf , is bad. What do you hope to ever accomplish with that ?
      You play an aggro guy at a 7$ and you reraise pf oop with K3 , deep stacks, what is the point of that ? (he will most likely not fold preflop and postflop try to bluff weakness plus K3 is a hard hand to play oop agaisnt aggro guy)

      This is wrong IMO , at micro stakes against an aggro player (= free money for me) I think you make more money by betting when you have it , fold it when you do not. Other strategies are less efficient than this one.

      Last edited by hungryguy; 07-25-2012 at 05:03 PM.
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      Old 07-25-2012, 05:50 PM   #9
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      Re: 5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by tigerjack89 View Post
      why do you guys think that a merged 3betting range is better than a polarized one?
      He is very aggro postflop and folded to the first 3bet; so, why we expect him to call with worse hands rather than 4bet jam?
      Simply population tendencies. There's no 100% right or wrong here. Hypothetically this guy could be folding 90+% to 3bets (super nit who only 4bets when he has it and never just flats) in which case you go polarized all the way... but there's no way for us to know. Based on what we do know (which is the equivalent of nothing with a sample size of 1), population tendency tells us he's calling more than he's folding.
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      Old 07-25-2012, 09:20 PM   #10
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      Re: 5€ turbo - bluff on the river in 3bet pot

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Motown_RC View Post
      Simply population tendencies. There's no 100% right or wrong here. Hypothetically this guy could be folding 90+% to 3bets (super nit who only 4bets when he has it and never just flats) in which case you go polarized all the way... but there's no way for us to know. Based on what we do know (which is the equivalent of nothing with a sample size of 1), population tendency tells us he's calling more than he's folding.
      Sure, but at the same time we know he is very aggro postflop, and in general people with this tendencies tends to be also aggro preflop. So, he can 4bet jam a lot of hands against which we have a great equity.

      EDIT: also, I never add K3s to a polarized range, it's way to profitable to flat this oop.
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