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 06-01-2012, 08:28 PM #1 journeyman     Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Canaderp Posts: 243 4b shove vs min3b first hand Poker Stars, \$14.69 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 2 Players Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #13031501 Hero (SB): 500 (25 bb) BB: 500 (25 bb) Preflop: Hero is SB with 3 3 Hero raises to 40, BB raises to 80, Hero raises to 500 and is all-in, BB calls 420 and is all-in Flop: (1,000) 8 5 6 (2 players, 2 are all-in) Turn: (1,000) K (2 players, 2 are all-in) River: (1,000) 2 (2 players, 2 are all-in) Spoiler: Results: 1,000 pot Final Board: 8 5 6 K 2 Hero showed 3 3 and won 1,000 (500 net) BB showed Q A and lost (-500 net) Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer. Hey guys! I've been shoving small PPs over min 3bets readless at 25 bb but I havent been in that situation that often and from my small experience I havent gotten barely any folds. Let us say 22 vs a 4b calling range of 88+,ATs+,ATo+,KJs+,QJs+,KQo Please tell me if this is a ridiculous range for min3b/call 4b readless. 22 has ~40% equity. From this calculation (I ignore expected value from calling): If we want EV(shove) > EV(fold) = 0 where x is % of folds from opponent. EV(Shove) = EV(Fold from opp) + EV(If called) EV(Shove) = (pot after min3b)*x + (calling frequency)*(EV from losing + EV from winning) EV(Shove) = 120x + (1-x)*(0.6(-460)+0.4(540)) EV(Shove) = 180x - 60 180x - 60 > 0 => x = ~33% Unless I messed up the calculations we need villain to fold 33% of the time for a shove to be profitable and i'm really not convinced this is the case. Thoughts?
 06-01-2012, 09:49 PM #2 newbie   Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 28 I dunno if your calcs are correct, but id widen up that range a bit, esp first hand. But I dont think that means you'll really get that many more folds though, haha
 06-01-2012, 10:27 PM #3 grinder     Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 421 Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand Yes, the math is right, but i think readless a 3b/calling range should be wider. But I don't play hyperturbos, so wait for better responses gl
 06-01-2012, 10:38 PM #4 centurion     Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 165 Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand Just shove pre readless. It is profitable automatically with a hand you will struggle to find value played any other way.
 06-01-2012, 11:16 PM #5 Pooh-Bah     Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Russia Posts: 3,522 Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand If you assume he actually min 3 bets 15%, and only calls 9.5% range as you suggest (folding 33~% of the time) its highly positive with any pair.
 06-02-2012, 02:38 AM #6 veteran     Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: slowplaying A-high Posts: 2,029 Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand yeah just openship, as played def just ship over his min 3bet. also range is different, villains that min 3bet will likely have weak Ax here much more often than big Ax, and they tend to spazzcall.
 06-02-2012, 11:14 AM #7 journeyman     Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Canaderp Posts: 243 Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand Is this the consensus then? Small PPs should be openshoved readless at 25 bb?
06-02-2012, 12:08 PM   #8
grinder

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 421
Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Torg0th Is this the consensus then? Small PPs should be openshoved readless at 25 bb?
22-44 for sure, 55 it's close and depends a lot on general tendencies of your villains.

gl

 06-02-2012, 12:58 PM #9 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: May 2009 Location: South Europe Posts: 6,584 Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand 44 I'd probably still open at 25bb vs most people, def readless
06-02-2012, 02:16 PM   #10
veteran

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 2,707
Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand

Quote:
 Originally Posted by JSpazz 44 I'd probably still open at 25bb vs most people, def readless
meh depends if you have any reads. at lower stakes and vs known non reg i think jamming is better since they will have very low 3b frequency first hand.

55 def opening

 06-02-2012, 05:17 PM #11 _Pooh_Bah_   Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK Posts: 9,145 Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand huge nittery, but this isn't a min3bet - which would be to t60. Not sure what to call these, I once seen a phmerc video where he called them baby-3bet so I call them that lol. not that it changes much, but I often find a player who actually min3bets to t60 is a retard that will call jam with A2o and such.
06-03-2012, 06:53 AM   #12
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Europe
Posts: 6,584
Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand

Quote:
 Originally Posted by _dave_ huge nittery, but this isn't a min3bet - which would be to t60. Not sure what to call these, I once seen a phmerc video where he called them baby-3bet so I call them that lol. not that it changes much, but I often find a player who actually min3bets to t60 is a retard that will call jam with A2o and such.
in a hyper I'd get any pair in over any 3bet unless trapping is better or villain has an obv strong range (need strong reads for that)

 06-04-2012, 09:02 PM #13 journeyman     Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Canaderp Posts: 243 Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand What about aces? Would you fold A2o? Which ones would you call/shove?
06-04-2012, 11:49 PM   #14
journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 222
Re: 4b shove vs min3b first hand

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Torg0th What about aces? Would you fold A2o? Which ones would you call/shove?
With A2o you need 60% folds to break even on a 4bet shove assuming 25% EQ when called. So readless its either extremely -EV or marginally +EV.
Obviously we can open up our 4bet shoving range a LOT if we see him doing this with any sort of frequency.

Call or fold vs the first small 3 bet is fine. I prefer a fold with A2o. Its just such a unplayable hand. He needs to be pretty passive for it to turn in to a obvious +EV call.

I prefer calling with hands like 86s, 43s, 87o, Q9o and suited hands like Qxs that can flop a FD + one over card. Basically what we want to do is to have enough equity to shove profitably vs his very probable cbet.

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