Well yeah, but we improve on the river means the board gets pretty scary with those action killing cards, and I don't see many hands that c/c 3 streets and don't c/r on turn.

Plus people c/r turn a good amount with pair + draw, it's not always the nutted range.

Ok sir, you've convinced me.

One thing is, I thought readless turn c/r range was a lot stronger than what people are saying. Won't most villains not barrel here with hands as light as J5? There could be a good amount of draws when barreling but it seems pretty polarized, but imo weighted more towards strength readless @ a $30.

I mean I have trouble seeing why a good player would c/r something like 79 more or less readless here, or why a fish would do the same.

This discounts our three st. But doesn't negate it. There is still value in building a pot for when we improve

no reads, sizing - must fold

I'm not sure if c/r is the best play on turn here, maybe it is maybe not depending on so many things, but I can think of 2 reasons.

1) Although 97 has a very good equity, it's not really easy to play profitably on the river both when we hit or miss.

2) If we can fold out some weak Jx by c/r here, which most people ITT agreed on by saying we have to fold J5 here, it becomes a very good semibluff as well.

For us to be value betting, he has to have worse hands that will pay us off often enough. If we improve on the river, most of the time the board will be too scary and he would need 2p or Jx to call, that somehow he just c/c'ed with on flop and turn. So although we can get 3 streets of value from those hands sometimes, other times they will c/r with those hands and put us in a difficult spot, and this should even out imo.

You're right in saying that there's still some value in betting on turn because we can prolly get 2 streets of value from hands like A7 or A8 before the board gets too scary, if that's what you meant by building up the pot for when we improve. However, to me it seems a bit too optimistic to expect to get 3 streets of value with this hand on this board.

Its really both things you're saying. We get the extra value from things like a8, we also get the 2nd street from draw type hands like 56/57/89 etc, and we can get heroe'd for 3 streets by anything. On top of that we can get put in plenty of bad spots otr by checking turn which, imo, counters when we get raised ott. That said there really aren't many awkward spots ott... we aren't getting raised much and when we do were generally crushed so its not awkward

What bad spots can we get put in by checking turn, besides possibly missing value? We aren't afraid of calling off his river donk bet on most cards, and our decision shouldn't be tough when he checks to us.

For some reason the first half of my post got cropped. Weird..

Again, as for getting hero'ed for 3 streets, I think he needs to have 2p or Jx often enough, and some of them will c/r on flop or turn. And most Jx have us beat on turn anyway, so it's a bit unclear why we bet on turn (we would be value towning ourselves), although your reasoning makes a lot of sense too.

I agree that we would miss some value vs A8 type of hands by not betting on turn, but we can regain that missed value on most rivers. What we seem to disagree on is hos turn c/r range, which is fine imo.