Genher really nice!
I think u right about the ranges fishes do stupid things but want to get it in good,really good starting point better then just firing in the dark.
also a lot of players will 3b shove 20-25bb pretty tight like your range and start spew more under 15bb.

we are talking about situations in this thread were opponents jam over our minraise, so our only option is to fold or call - no room for 4-bet shove.

didnt read it completely, just read about folding KQ, it is a mistake imo if opp has 3bet 18%, same with jam, KQ is a call. sure it all depends on stats a lot, at 50/100 u should have 50+ hands on him so make a read and do the right thing.

Er, wups, I didn't realize the question was regarding a 3b shove. That's what I get for not reading carefully.

I would like to point out (again) that I am was NOT advocating that they are 3 bet shoving ranges you should necessarily be using (even if it's probably good enough vs a lot of people).
I was showing that this type of chart are a good method in response to OP's problem. Mainly, it's a good idea to know what you response will be if your villain 3 bet shoves on you, BEFORE to minRaise (at any stack depht and esp. in Hypers).

What ranges you use is up to you and will depend on your villain and on the stack depht. But making yourself 3 or 4 of these with some typical ranges should cover most situations.

The offer for you to suggest your own 3 bet shoving ranges (and me to do the calc) stands till the end of the week-end


(sorry to OP for highjacking his thread)

^
if your offer stands, I want to try out a little bit of a polarized range (hands not included in this range are or flatted, folded or non AI 3-betted by Villain

JJ-22,AQs-A5s,A2s,KJs-K7s,Q9s-Q7s,J8s-J7s,T7s,97s,AJo-A8o,KJo-K9o,QJo,J9o,T9o,98o,87o

That's an interesting one!



BTW "A" stands for "All" and will be if you have more than 50% Eq vs the range or if the result is more than 100BB

What up guys,

Been away for awhile & just got back to checking up on the thread. Thanks for all your help Genher you didn't hijack as much as look after it. I just read through it all and give you props for all the info. I'm gonna try to memorize 1 of those charts when I have the chance. Its nice to have a good starting point for default m/r call 3 bet shoves with eff stack sizes included b/c alot of equities change when stack sizes shrink. Its really helpful to know at what stack size you can call it off with. It helps define your m/r's preflop to. I'm also gonna post my results for a 3rd looser 3betting range in a minute.

LVL 1 30% 3 Bet Range 46.67% needed
LVL 1 30% 3 Bet Range 43.33% needed

30%=
Any Ace, Any pair, Any Broadway, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s & 65s.

LVL 1 - 1,500 ss, 30BB
M/R call a 3 bet shove:
A8o+, A5s+, 33's+, KJs+, KQo

LVL 2 - 1,500 ss, 15BB
M/R call a 3 bet shove:
A5o+, A2s+, 22's+, K9s+, KTo+, QTs+

A4o 43.02
A5o 44.17
A6o 44.47
A7o 46.47
A8o 48.61

A2s 44.75
A3s 45.44
A4s 46.11
A5s 47.17

22's 44.89
33's 47.14

KQs 50.01
KQo 47.35
KJs 48.21
KJo 45.33
KTs 46.42
KTo 43.42
K9s 43.55
K9o 40.33
K8s 41.98

QJs 46.11
QJo 43.12
QTs 44.32
Q9s 41.93

JTs 43.17

Well allright. TY pokerstove.

What should I add to this wallpaper?

Also,

I want to thank every1 for contributing to this thread. Its really a game of incomplete information, but every little bit helps. While all these calculations were done using a value 3 betting range, at least you have a good solid starting point to work with. While including some trash hands would really increase the hand strength of a hand like KQo its nice to have a conservative default estimation of how it compares to the top 18, 25 & 30% 3 betting ranges.

Thats all I really was after. Its the first hand of the tourney and your m/r gets jammed on. What should you stack off with? Its a completely different story after you have some quality reads on your villain. You can snap off w/ KQo after you see him 3 bet shove light or right after he loses a big pot to you and is prolly tilting.

Anyways, thanks again for all the advice. Wish every1 gl today & hope u run good.

Lata

Ok. I forgot to bring up removing some strong hands from the shoving ranges. I think I would agree that against most villains they're not showing up with AA, KK or QQ sometimes not JJ or TT either. But against an unknown, I just played a hand today where I was shoved on by KK so you never really know what they will show up with.



Its really nice to have conservative estimates so you know you'll have an edge when the money goes in. If your only ev gain is like .01 or something like that, you should prolly pass it up. Most likely you will get the money in better somewhere else. Sure your giving up a really small edge, but you should be able to find a bigger 1 down the road. Thats the nice thing about only including value 3 betting ranges. Its conservative, but it guarantees you that your gonna have an edge against every opp.

All that said, I'm not using these ranges as my be all end all. Its just so I can have something to go on readless. So much of poker is based on every different opp and every different spot. I'm calling it off with K6o when someones tilting ya know. Just cuz I'm saying KQo is really bad to bet call with, its only b/c against a value range it is.

cool stuff guys

I personally like the two ranges you've provided for 3bet-shoving ranges. I have a couple more that I think will also help. Can you please make charts for these 2 ranges? I'll explain their benefit from my perspective:

(1) JJ-22,A2s+,KTs-K8s,QTs-Q9s,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,A2o+,KTo,QTo,JTo,T9o (25.3 % of all hands)

It is unlikely that villain is 3bet-jamming QQ+ >8bb. Good broadways (i.e. KJs) play so well postflop yet they don't match up well against any Ax or PP so they are likely better off NAI-3bet or flatted (~ >12bb-13bb). Mid-SCs like 87s-JTs don't have great equity when called but a lot of villains have these as their semi-bluff or outright bluff 3bet-shove hands b/c of their potential (>12bb would be my guess, below that these hands will be called by more K-rag/Q-rags so better to play cautiously). So I think this is a good typical yet flexible 3bet-shoving range for a villain.

(2)
JJ-22,A2s+,K7s+,Q8s+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,A2o+,K8 o+,Q9o+,JTo,T9o,98o (34.1% of all hands)

A little looser than #1, adding all broadways, more SCs, more connectors, down to K7s, K8o, Q9o etc.

range 1 is 28.4% if I am not mistaken!?

Range 2 first, range 1 second