I know tons of people still play these around the world but I just cannot for the life of me turn these into a profit other than on the smallest stakes on BetOnline, which has no rakeback. On WPN - no matter what I do I lose. I just get absolutely crushed whether I'm ahead or behind when the money goes in. It's INFESTED with regs. Maybe the same 25 people running the micros/smalls all day and night.

Where are US players playing these profitably, if anywhere? I mean, even with like a 53% winning percentage, you're still just leaking money.

Edit: They will not go in until they absolutely have to or have AT+. Nobody calling anything off early. They'll play 200 hands in turbo if it takes that to get the win. I've been at 93 bb's to 3 bb's and lost. TT+ like 8, 9 hands against me in a row. Honestly, I'm not making this up and I don't see how anyone could make money on the US networks. Is anyone?

Improve -> Adjust -> Crush
Its simple as that if you are making the right decision in the long run you will be fine. Don't be result oriented
Gl mate

I hear you. It's tough for me even @ the 2.20's on this network but with my current winning percentage, I should be able to profit on the $3 or $5 ones on the softer rec networks. Basically, I've started looking at whatever is lost on these as an investment in education. I've clearly hit some bad variance but I've also clearly just been in a pool of players that's tough for me.

My tilt control is getting much better. I see that these really test that and this is another thing I'm basically getting to improve at a discount price.

I'm going to sign up for a good training video site that has a lot of SNG content, too. Upswing Poker looks good for this and I know about HUSNG.com, of course.

That's because WPN is opened to ROW too. All the regs are ROW.

Upswing is good for fundamentals, but their lab stuff isn't built for husngs.

If you're playing hypers, 53% is great. If you're playing BOL, your winrate should be much higher than that and closer to 56 or 57. Husngs are definitely beatable on US networks, though they are reggy. Don't battle the regs if you can avoid it.

Probably Ignition where its only US but they only have turbos. Most other US sites allow ROW afaik- Merge, BetOnline. Try petitioning to the US sites to ban ROW and only allow US players

Is row better than us?

Across the board? Probably, at this point.

What I do know is that WPN is the toughest US facing site, period.

In all reality, I need the experience against ROW players, especially HU. Once again, I think it's helping my overall game. Eventually, I'll have to pick a specialty to maximize profits/ability/growth but is there really any severe conflict - either in practice or bankroll management - that comes from playing like HUSNG's + MTT's, or SNG's + HUSNGs? As a US player, I'm wondering if this is actually the best way to maximize volume for a non cash player.

It's hard to be effective during the learning process if you're playing 3-4 variants of poker. They each have their own unique strategies and processes for improving. Spins + HUSNGs may be close enough to be OK, same with multi table SNGs + MTTs, but mixing several of them together isn't the best idea in my mind.

I also wouldn't put that much weight into site difficulty, WPN may be tougher than Ignition or BOL, but it's not a very big difference.

If you like or are neutral to the anonymous non hyper turbo environment on Ignition, play there. If you don't like that and want to use a HUD, WPN is a great place. If you're not getting enough volume on one site, mix others in. But focusing on improving your own play is going to reap more rewards than focusing too much on the specifics of the chosen site or ROW vs US. US is a fishier playerbase on avg, but non Stars vs US sites is not night and day. Stars has more pros and higher caliber players, but also more volume (and this stuff becomes truer as you move up in stakes), so at the lower stakes pick a site you're comfortable on and play there, adding in sites if necessary for volume. Otherwise, just try to learn as much as possible, relevant content (for HUSNGs, HUSNG content, for MTTs MTT content, for spins 2-3 handed content, etc.), trying to apply general advice to a specific game is unnecessary in 2017, there's enough quality fundamental content within your reach for any specific game.

Thanks for taking the time. I've only been playing on and off (mostly off) for 2-3 years online. I've never played live. I started playing again over the last month or so and just haven't looked back. I didn't have the time/money on my hands for this previously and I've seen others on the forums get more heavily involved in the game as their schedule freed up, as well.

I like your advice about not getting caught up in which site is tougher than which, etc. I've always had some tilt issues (although they're much better now that I have money to invest in this) but they really have gotten better by just forcing myself to focus on one thing: Playing good poker. Not the bankroll, not the last hand, not that "beat" earlier. Just play the next hand well.

I'd like to settle down on one variant sooner than later so I'm going to work on that. The STT's on WPN + the rakeback and Sit n Crush points do legitimately look like the best route for me as far as profitability go but I think I can get in more volume playing HUSNGs. I'll have to see. I've always loved playing cash games but at the micros, you know that's not exactly the quickest way to put a roll together.

I'll keep testing the waters, keep learning, and just focusing on that next hand.

edit: I can't play on Ignition as they only allow grandfathered accounts from my state (NY). I have money down on WPN, BetOnline, and Intertops (Horizon).

The sad thing here is that I like the HUSNG's a lot, play better in them than anything else, and yet at this point I've lost like 17 of the last 20 $2.20's on here. Really, I'm not doing much wrong, either. I haven't found ONE instance of me pushing OR folding wrongly (truth), I'm getting the money in well ahead or even almost all of the time and yet there's nothing I can do to win. I had one guy get KK 6 times in a 93 hand game. The next guy flopped a full house 3 times in 10 hands. There's just nothing I can do. In the past, this kind of thing would have had me probably just rage uninstall but I'm well beyond that point now. It is what it is. Seriously though, I've never seen anything like that before. I just got rivered again by a two outter to lose another one. Guy's playing 100% of hands and is terrible and just keeps getting slammed by the deck. I'm watching him against other users, too: Ripping them apart by flopping quads, full houses, nut flushes, etc. It's insane.

I don't want to stop playing these because I legitimately think I could make the most profit and get in the most volume with these but if I almost never win no matter what I do right or wrong, I don't feel sane about just continuing to leak money on these. It doesn't happen to me in any other variant.

So, I go back over to BetOnline to the regular $3.15's. Face off against a guy I've played many times (that's the other problem - on both networks it's the same 3 or 4 people every single game). Within 20 hands he's down to 700 chips and then it's just miracle hand after miracle hand over and over until he finally wins an all in when we're both in push/fold mode. I don't really know what to say. I know it's not just me, either because I watch these guys play other players and they simply never lose. The same handful on two networks, all different micro/small stakes. I saw a guy down to 2 bb's with 100 chip big blinds, and come back to win against a guy who's a solid regular (WPN).

I don't get it. I turn on training videos and see guys laughing, making hero calls like it's nothing, getting slammed by the deck, all in like $5,000 SNG's. Roulette and craps have been far, far, far better to me than these.

You try not to tilt but I've never met anyone in person with the patience, poise, and luck that clearly tons of winning online poker players have. It's amazing. Anyone I've ever met would be out the door after the third or fourth river against them.

You whine too much, and you don't play as well as you think you do.

Check your ego and learn to play better.

I guess there's no reason to respond to this.

Anyway, after a few more $3.15 regulars it was obvious that the guys here were far, far weaker than the $2.20 turbos on WPN. So, I moved up to the $5.25's and they're definitely a step up, but still quite playable for me. So, I'll keep doing this and growing my BO bankroll, and then make another deposit on WPN and stick to the regular HUSNG's as I've read not to move up to the turbos or hypers until you can beat the regulars. Is that sound advice?

edit: @ Duncelanas - You're right. Nothing good comes from complaining about a bad run but in all honesty, I've lost one game to tilt, including MTT's and STT's, in the last few days and no more. One hand was the result of tilt. So, I guess some of it came out on the screen instead of on the felt and I'd rather that in the end. As said, I shouldn't have complained at all.

I got some sleep, woke up, and played a few more of these. I think I'm done with them. I have the #'s right here. 54% winning will not get you but the slightest profit, if any. Depends on the network. With the blind structure and the fact that this is the most shove happy form of poker there is (which is cool), there's really no way to accomplish that consistently. I mean, I lose a good 4/10 to bad beats and rivers. All ins with 80%+ equity. That's almost half the games right there. That means I have to win every other game to even make the slightest profit.

It's also very apparent that this is a variant where weak players hide and have the best odds of winning. The only post flop play they know is to bluff shove and they're literally playing ATC, calling 3b's with literally ANYTHING, hitting the flop and shoving. It's just too random, dicey, and just plain gambling.

I can't remember the last time I played a player who was decent in one of these and yet as said, I can't make but the slightest profit. I think it's time to go back to the cash games where these guys actually have to pay for their ridiculous play.

The players who win in these play about as tight as the WPN cash players. They just DO NOT go in with the money unless they have QQ+ preflop or a monster post flop. You know how people always talk about 2 pair on a dry board being a big hand in HU? That's not what I've experienced. They hit the same hands online here that they do in the cash games. Flushes left and right, full boats, nut straights, etc. Huge hands every single SNG. You have to be prepared to play 200-300 hands against a regular in a regular speed HUSNG. They'll just sit and wait until you make a mistake or the blinds increase so drastically that it's shove mode for both of you. Many of the regulars take 45+ minutes to finish. Every, every two dozen or so someone donks out quickly. That's about it. So, tons and tons of work and in the end you wind up with about a coin flip. On average, that's pretty much what these come down to in the end.

I just had one where the guy called a 6x raise pre, a pot size bet flop, turn check, river shove and the reality was that he runner runner'd two pair with 79o. I had KK. With the board that was there, even his 79o was marginal for him to get the money in with. He didn't even hesitate. 6x raise pre, peel the flop with air? And he wins the SNG? That's beyond stupid.

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database

NL Holdem $-20(BB)
SB ($960)
HERO ($2040)

Dealt to Hero Q Q

SB Calls $10 (Rem. Stack: 940), HERO Raises To $80 (Rem. Stack: 1940), SB $940 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0), HERO Calls $860 (Rem. Stack: 1080)

Flop ($1920) J 5 4

Turn ($1920) J 5 4 3

River ($1920) J 5 4 3 5

SB shows 5 K

SB wins $1920

I mean, how many of these do you guys think I can go through per every 10 games and still make a profit? I swear to you guys, This is ALL that happens all day and night on these. I get ahead, he gets tilted, he shoves way, way behind and hits gold on the board. Of course, after this I never saw anything better than 87o and lost the SNG. That's 4 in a row this morning that I clearly had in the bag and just got ripped away from me. At a certain point, the game's just not profitable. I'm getting beat by guys who don't even raise with full houses. They're clueless as to what the value of their hand even is. And yet this is how they keep getting my buy in.

Any of you can claim anything you want about tilt control, but if this happened to you for literally three days straight, you would be tilting beyond belief. There's no human being who wouldn't. To repeatedly keep beating someone at a game for money and keep being told "sorry, we're gonna just give him a pass on this one even though he has absolutely no idea what he's doing", is the kind of thing that drives people away from this game.

So, I go out for a bit and cool off. Clear my head. I come back to the tables and say "you know what, just move forward". Let's be honest: Most would be done for the day.

These two hands happened in the next sit n go. Guy was openly LOL'ing in chat, cursing at me, admitting to being drunk @ 8am.

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database

NL Holdem $-30(BB)
SB ($895)
HERO ($2105)

Dealt to Hero A K

SB $880 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0), HERO Calls $865 (Rem. Stack: 1210)

Flop ($1790) A 9 3

Turn ($1790) A 9 3 T

River ($1790) A 9 3 T 3

SB shows T 3

SB wins $1790


Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database

NL Holdem $-40(BB)
SB ($2135)
HERO ($865)

Dealt to Hero A Q

SB Raises To $100 (Rem. Stack: 2015), HERO $825 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0), SB Calls $745 (Rem. Stack: 1270)

Flop ($1730) 6 J J

Turn ($1730) 6 J J 9

River ($1730) 6 J J 9 7

SB shows K J

SB wins $1730


Can someone explain what's going on here to me? Let me guess: Variance? Every single game?

Now at this point, most people would have thrown the laptop out the window. Can you imagine what the odds are of the same player going through this many beats like this in just a few days? Try a few years. This is all that's ever happened to me with online poker and this is why you shouldn't laugh at players who say the online game is rigged. Any sound, reasonable, sane person would have come to that conclusion after the last few days I've had. Anyone.

I too like to complain when I get it in with QQ vs K5o pre. Those definitely aren't the players I want in my games.

Yeah, the problem is that I nor anyone else is going to wait 8 months before the "bad variance" stops and these bad players start losing like they should. I've been waiting 3 years and I've never had one good run. This is all that ever happens. I swear to you, I've sat watching two sun ups and sun downs taking beat, after beat, after beat, after beat. 15, 20, 30 a day.

It's always the same thing here: NO! You don't understand! You WANT to get ripped off by players who throw ATC into the middle. Those are the guys you make MONEY off of!". Except none of us do. We're posting about it in the first place because they keep winning the all ins.

All anyone knows how to do is yell "rigtard" any time someone shows a series of beats that have such a ridiculously astronomically low chance of occurring in succession that they're basically not possible if the cards were truly random.

It's beyond obvious to me what's happening and I'm not alone. This is why so few people play online poker in 2017. They either play live or they don't. I know "If you put in the volume, this will eventually even out". Once again, people play games like Candy Crush in 2017. Nobody, but a virtual handful of people, has the time, patience, or money to sit there for 3+ years waiting for the "variance" to run out and being told "sorry, 2 million hands is still too small of a sample size!". It's just not going to fly anymore, guys.

Who besides you is posting this **** here?

There are plenty of fulltime professional players in this forum who have played millions of hands here, many of whom have seen variance that you probably couldn't even comprehend. And yet it's the inexperienced $2 player whining about bad beats.

That should tell you something, and it's not about sites being shady or the rest of literally everyone good in this forum running better than you.

Lol.

Yeah, stars doesn't have tens of thousands of online players every hour of the day. Wait...

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I don't really see how any of this addresses the 3+ years of absolutely nothing but beats like I've posted above. Why do the full time professionals not go through that? Obviously, whatever the reason is it has absolutely nothing to do with poker ability. So what makes one guy lose most of his huge favorite all ins and another guy just not. Over a period of years?

And yes - Stars has tens of thousands of players online at a given time. Tens of thousands of people are playing poker in a world of 7 million. Really, really popular activity. You do realize chess has become so, so much more popular than poker even in the US, don't you? I already explained - You don't hear a lot of people complain because the posts are all shuffled off to "rigtard" threads or deleted. That or the people have just taken their money and moved along ages ago because they went through the same thing as me.

This is not 2006 anymore. I told you: In today's world, very few people are going to sit and do the right thing 200 times in a row and get nothing but less money for it. If you want them to wait long periods of time and massive sample sizes to see results: They won't. The game will just die off further. The world moves fast and demands results today. Not tomorrow. Now. Any game that demands massive amounts of time to *maybe* see results, doesn't really have a place.

So yeah, 20 thousand people in a world of 7 million are playing poker right now. That probably makes it one of the least popular activities going on atm.

Tens of thousands of people are playing chess for real money right now, right?

Wait...

"I don't want to admit I'm bad. Online poker is personally rigged against me!"

If you spent as much time studying as you do whining, you might actually have a shot at being a winning player. So much for that, right?

Once again: There's nothing you can "study" to make sure that you win more all ins where you're a huge favorite. It's SO obvious that this is a ripoff, dude and posts like yours only make it more obvious.

I just played another one: In 21 hands, the guy flopped 3 sets. We know that's not happening over, and over, and over again legitimately. We don't have to put in a 3 million game sample size to confirm it's not rigged. We already know based on just what I've gone through today.

Where are all of these winners? It seems like a few dozen people on 2p2 claim to win money, and other than that ...where? I don't see any in my database. When I watch games online, I just see everyone swapping chips back and forth, paying rake to the house. Where are all of these winners you're talking about?

"Study more" - Study what? You guys pretend this game is much, much more complex than it is. "Study combo's, odds/outs, hand histories, etc, etc". How will that help me not keep losing all ins where I have 80%+ equity? Please, explain. Because until you do, you haven't said anything here.

"You're bad at poker" - You don't know that. You have absolutely no evidence of that. Obviously, constantly getting the money in as an 80%+ favorite would indicate the opposite. The last one I like is the one you guys always pull out once there's nowhere left to run in the argument: "Don't be results oriented". In other words, don't worry about the money that's being stolen from us. When we spend enough time and donate enough, then the REAL results come in and all the hard work pays off!!. Again, people aren't totally ******ed. We've all seen this show before, just in other venues.

Yeah, you're a sad dude who can't admit you're a losing player.


Your posts are my evidence, homie.

Nope.



Dunno, guess they don't exist.