Ray asked my by MP why I think this is bad. I will expand here as I prefer to keep any conversation on this topic public. Typed this fast while playing, sorry for typos and bad form.

--In short, if regs can avoid each others, it means they sit recs more often, which in turn means recs face regs slightly more often (the slightly being dependant of % of reg, recs, games obv).

Now, if recs face regs more often, and specially the topregs which would be the subscribers, they loose money faster and so the games dry up faster.

-- 2nd point, one of the main attract of Spins for recs is the randomn of seating, and not just the gimmick of randomn prizes, you can't choose if you are going to sit regs or recs, everyone is on the same playing field. Recs or regs that dont use the soft wont be able to avoid subregs, meaning you increase toughness of the field they face. In short, subscribers have an unfair advantage over nonsubscribers.

Plus, if recs are made aware of this, some will just quit, why do you think most stopped playing hypers or other forms ? Heck if this program is legal, i know i will move elsewhere.

-- the argument that the program doesn't have full control on seating doesn't stand, as long as it increases users ability to have a softer field, it's bad.

-- You can't use the argument that there is too many tables running for the program to have an impact on other users/recs. If that's the case, then that means the field is so big you already have a very small % of sitting other regs, thus this program isn't of any help to you.

So, either this program impact the field or it's useless, but you can't have it both ways.

Finally, it's not just "avoid a friend", it's "avoid any subscribing reg by default", including some I may never have met. Stop the hypocrisy please.

Fish enter Spins in order to hit big multipliers and win 100k in 5 minutes or whatever, HUSNG fish don't do that cos it's impossible, there you have the main difference and why they don't care. Saying they'll be out of money faster... I can't begin to know how to respond to that if you think it's true.

Replace fish by marginal loosing regfish if you wish.

What you're saying is only true in certain times to a certain extent.

Example of truth is the ability to avoid every single player, even if they want to sit you (old hu cash lobby).

An example of your view above being false is reducing regs edges to keep recreational players playing longer. This can quickly turn the games unprofitable.

This software doesn't allow the hu cash style avoidance, it would be impossible even if that were the goal. In HUSNG, two players can avoid each other if both want to avoid each other. You can do that in 3 handed as well (with or without this software, this software makes it far easier to do so).

This is not true. If I want to avoid another reg and he wants to avoid me, we can avoid each other by simple communication. This can, and already does happen in Spin and Gos.

Everyone is on the same playing field too. Everyone can use the software, for one. But secondly, the software does not target specific players, nor does it block people. I can't choose to sit you if you're not using the program. I also cannot choose to avoid you if you want to face me and we both use the software (though 33%+ times you want to sit me we will not be sat in the same match, again, not very predatory when it comes to targeting, you can't use this to ruin someone's day).

The seating is still as random as it was before. If you want fairness, it's in allowing everybody the same ability as the "connected" players and regs in chats that can take turns to register.

Most people who quit HUSNGs did not do so because players could automatically register or avoid each other. Regs in HUSNGs prior to hypers were avoiding each other for years, it was just easy to do it manually (and coordinate via msn and skype). Hell, the 1k regs still do this (without software), because the pool is small enough.

The game grew during these time periods as well, both in # of players interested in playing and profitability.

The real reason why people are turned off is because the HUSNG software can actually target people. You can form groups and block other players from getting recreational opponents. That's a turn off to some.

And this program does none of that.

I don't think this is true, it's really the same argument as the first quote box, so I think my reply there applies here too.

This is also not true. The software costs 16-25 euros per month, depending on the plan. If you even play 1000 games in a month at the $30 level, that means you need to increase your profit by 3 cents per game to show a clear profit from using this software. Or, in ROI terms, .1%. (slightly diff #s bc euro vs dollar comparison).

Low impact might mean "avoiding being sat by 2-3 regs that also use the program 5% of the time," yet still be well worth 16-25 euros.

In addition, the features such as set table caps and picking the buyin you want to auto register, will have some value to users too.

I know it's not sexy to say "this is not useless, nor is this the holy grail that will turn you from a loser to a winner automatically" but that's the truth about this program (and most other things), despite the marketing of most products in this world.

It can, and almost always is, true that something is not the greatest thing ever, nor is completely useless.

This looks like an argument to have a "deslect all" and "select all" option on the program (and it won't matter if all are selected or deselected by default then).

Again, if users want changes to the program and believe there are elements that are undesirable (and elements that are desirable), go ahead and suggest this.

If you want to talk about regfish, you should realize that what drives him is the potential to be winning player. Make games unbeatable and "slightly losing regfish" will lose any interest in game.
You cant just assume that someone who is just not good enough to beat rake/field plays whenever he has money and quits when he is broke like braindead monkey.

If we would follow your logic, pokersites should ban HUD or any software which helps regular players. It help them to win money out of recreational players faster, right? So games dry up faster? EVIL!

Yes, and once you reach a critical mass of users, you basically are forced to use this program. Yet as you and the developer mentioned, right now there are enough tables filling quick enough, so there is no need for a seating program at all, so actually there are no problems. Maybe somewhere down the road, but these problems can be dealt in a different way.

But in the end, people will pay for it and use it - since greed always prevails, and if someone sees a slight chance to just play a couple regs less he will go this route. Thats why Pokerstars should give a clear statement here if they will stick to Battlenet and actively enforce the prohibition of such software now and in the future (also in private use e.g. within staking groups - where this software probably originated from) or if they are going to allow it. Whilst this program might be on the more harmless side, other developers might go a more aggressive approach and built in features that could cause us a lot of headache.

Right now, there is nothing wrong with how these games function so why try to combat problems where there are none and increase our cost of grinding.

How rigged poker became in last years wit sitting softwares and regs brains small as peanuts. Is going to kill games really fast in like 1 year or even before and is not like hu hypers format, where best regs can sit others, make tiny roi and push em of lobby. So basically any reg can sit and bumhunt whole day long. As result of it, we gonna have massive reg infested game fast in a joke format wit long term unbeatable rake.

It might work in first few months, until biggest donks are gone (wit that rake and thousands regs will take less than a half a year...) and average fish/fishreg is only left, if?(even those will start to use this software). Any serious reg (battling type reg) out there wanna sit weak regs in spins. So those guys can not even have possibility to build up their bankroll here. They know format is swingy and hardly beatable (cause or rake and possibility of having game vs strong reg) so they stay out of it, making at least possibility for format to be profitable for best regs. Once u give opportunity to every reg out there from micro limits to bumhunt 30s and later 60s, you are cutting your own branch. When u have thousands regs in spins, no way u can drive them out of lobby/games. Is will not be hu sng, where eventually lobbies are cleaned by best guys. Is going to be quantity over quality here, no way best 100 battling regs can destroy, push out 1000 bumhunters regs.

So much talked Ryan about bumhunting is not good for a game, supporting divisions in every possible post, while bringing a bumhunt software wit his crew. Am having nothing against his pure business interest here, but trying to represent himself as some kind community leader is a joke.

I do believe software is against interest of pokerstars/amaya. While it might increase games in first months, it will eventually (in near future of next months) dry em out. They are aware, bumhunting, sitting softwares are not good for their business, they are aware most of big prices have to go down to rec players cause only them bring money to other formats (including casino). They do not want every big price is taken down by regs and being withdraw next seconds. What industry really need is bring fun, entertainment back to game, bring back big marketing stories. I do believe amaya is aware of possible liquidity trap wit Spinwin and together wit other concerns like collusion we all know their next step

And what is that about price, i mean 100 usd for 6 months, what is that, are you guys trying to make fun of regs? So basically 200 usd per year for grinding 30s and like 500 usd later for 60s. For building up primitive software, any beginner/ intermediate IT programmer can build by himself in few weeks.

So is these really how we want poker is, paying for sharky strator, paying spinwins and thousands other sitting softwares. Will i have to have sitting software for every format out there am mixing. And giving u guys over 1000 usd per year,otherwise i have to play strictly regs.

Antitrust environment is not positive for any kind of business. We do not need that one here. Specially giving such power in hand of guy, which obv is clearly in conflict of interest. What prevents him to give his horses special benefits? Remeber how marko banned one guy and community looked away...

That's not true. If most regs use it to actually avoid each other, you would get games with at least 1 non reg 100% of the time, and you'd get instant action.

Whereas, if most regs use it and avoid each other, they would have to wait in a long line.

The reality is, if a lot of regs come to the game and/or non regs stop playing, there will either be a longer wait for a more profitable game, or a shorter wait for a less profitable game.

The situation of all regs avoiding each other is not going to be true as more people use the program, it makes sense to just play with one reg at a certain point (probably well before even 25% of the 300 regs example). Unlike HUSNGs, you can get games with 50% regs, 50% non regs.

- I don't control the software, nowhere near it. Several players actually own it and any 2 of 3 of those players could make any decision they want in a majority. I could not even team up with any one person to do that.

- I don't have any spin and go horses, nor is HUSNG.com currently marketing or sponsoring any staking program for spin and gos. If I were to stake 20 players in these games tomorrow myself (which I wouldn't do, I would sponsor a staking program), personally, I would still have to pay money for each of the players to use the software (again, I don't own this software, these are not my decisions, I cannot choose to give anything away, unlike, say, a premium pack video on HUSNG.com).

- The issues with ph33rox being banned are exactly why I chose to get involved with the people that run this program. If you look at my posts about that situation, you'll see that I was critical. So many people were sitting there on skype saying all these words to each other, but afraid to post publicly. One requirement for being a part of this was the refund clause, the no banning players for speaking out negatively and the community updates. Some form of all three of these were already discussed by the owners when they approached me, which was a great sign.

There is no bait and switch here. You can't build a forced monopoly with this program then say FU. Players that don't use it can't be targeted or anything, and players that do use it cannot force non users to play regs only until they comply with whatever demands they have (be it a system of entry or whatever).

Again, I know I run a HUSNG website, I know the HUSNG program that other people built has had a terrible reputation with users and caused a lot of anger for a lot of people over the years, but nothing could be done to stop it by the time people realized how they were going to be treated. This program cannot do that, and even if it could, you can go back and read the way the owner of that program was talking to people in the public threads, and compare it to the way people are being engaged here, or have been engaged in any product I've personally advocated and spoke up for for the last 7 years, I think you will see the difference as night and day.

I would argue that we should judge programs individually by their features, and not lump them all in together in a "all yes" or "all no" category.

Seating scripts for cash games (all about a race to be seated first, and they can all compete) are far different than the HUSNG one, and the 3 handed is even more different.

Not to mention individual scripts within the same game can differ.

Database software and HUDs have rules about the features within them, not generalizations that ban all or allow all. The same goes for poker calculators.

and now we gonna get cartels in spins also?

Ban please.

(You could learn to spell also SpinWiz)

gg Spin n Go's. They were fun for a while at least.

As usual, regs don't want a convenience software out to bring more ppl into these games.

GG...

and the quote you post is from where?

Pokerstars Game Integrity Team as a response to if that software is considered allowed or prohibited.

I think before you plan on using software on stars it might be a good idea to get a statement from them just to be on the safe side...

A bit more detailed:

Thanks for that. I think this point might be applicable

Depends how the program works I guess. Does it use some sort of central database of players registering at any given time (who are all using the program)? If so then they might be in breach of that rule, as the user has no way of knowing themselves who is trying to register when they are without access to the database.

No, i think this point soley reflects the issue with people using datamined hands to table select - i doubt its applicable at all here. Actually, considering that Spins are neither tracked nor so far datamined by other sites, its irrelevant really.

it should be banned, sitting on this format should be completly random. imho

I agree. The best thing about spin and gos is that its completely random seating imho.
Actually I think every format would benefit from random seating but its obviously not doable in most formats. Sitting out in cash games to wait for a fish, sharky... all these things turn people off. I know that when I wanna play a new game that I don't usually play and see that people are not playing each other and just waiting for a fish I say **** this and turn to something else.
The way spin and go is setup is completely fair to everyone. Everyone will play fish and regs and thats the way it should be.
So yeah this is a rant against all kinds of table selecting not just this software which I think should not be allowed but there are worse things that needs to be taken care of.

Seating is still the same with this tool.

If you and I want to avoid each other, we can just talk to each other in a skype group (what connected/popular/motivated people do already).

It's a bit of a PITA, thus you have something like this software automating it. Similar to if you want to always be playing 5 tables. You can do that manually, but it's a pain and you won't always succeed at opening the 4-5th table while playing. So you buy something like tableninja, which automates that manual ability. If you think all this type of stuff should be banned, that's certainly a point I can see and you are not alone, but I personally think we should distinguish between what is actually altering and hurting the games, and what is simply automation of manual user habits.

It's not like HUSNG registration, it's not the devil that will kill games or alter them drastically or force everyone into buying to get "access" to bad players. It doesn't allow divisions to form or create any new dynamic where a division is more appealing to many. See many posts above for detailed explanations.

Okay lets be reasonable here please - nobody talks to each other in a skype group to not be sat with each other in a 30s spin... thats like sooooo -ev, the time it takes to coordinate that. How is this supposed to go down?

"Yo guys - i gonna play now for an hour - i reg every 5 mins?" or does he shoot a message everytime he regs? I think thats a little overobsessed with avoiding regs buddies... And then he regs, and gets another reg at his table and basically his efforts didnt yield him anything... Sorry, that doesnt make sense at all...

Also, there is an huge diff of impact in 2 people taking turns (your example) and 30 or more making a queue (which they can't do without the software)

which raises the question of how many people are currently participating and on the avoid list..

Fish play them cos the player pool of other formats in Pokerstars isn't big enough and are tired of playing the same guy over an over.

SpinWiz has been reviewed and approved by PokerStars for use on their site. It will be added to their permitted list the next time their list is updated, which will be in the coming weeks.