Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos Discussion of heads up Sit & Go and Spin and Go poker games. Sponsored by HUSNG.com, the leading heads up poker video site.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-09-2016, 07:34 AM   #76
stofzuiger
stranger
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74 View Post
No, it isn't. Vs a passive rec, you're better off calling tighter than Nash; vs a maniac, obviously much wider; whereas vs a reg, you have to figure out what hand types are in his openshoving range as opposed to minraise/fold - a default reg shoves a capped range while minraising (limps at <12 bb) a polarised range of nuts and rags, and the optimal calling range vs this strategy is a bit looser than Nash.

Now let some non-fish correct me
I think i didnt word my first post right. I ment to say that HU <11BB your strats are somewhat clear using the nash calcs. Am i wrong on that? 'Cause i read a few different articles on that and they were all pretty corresponding on the fact that HU <11BB the optimal strat is always to use the push/fold charts based on nash calcs? I am talking about chart like these:
http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/headsup/
http://www.headsupsitandgo.com/husng-0-11-big-blinds/
stofzuiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 08:41 AM   #77
Nefirmative
adept
 
Nefirmative's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Illusory
Posts: 1,032
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

You worded your first post right. You're being told that it isn't necessarily the most profitable strategy if your opponent is significantly deviating from it.
Nefirmative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 09:02 AM   #78
BAZOOKASOLDIER
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 6
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Thanks a lot for this thread, invaluable for newbies!
It seems like Spins are pretty hot right now (a lot of new players) and it is a decent place to start poker. I mean profit wise.

Can you suggest some good topics/websites/videos/books for learning Spins? I have some poker background, so I'm not a complete donkey. Should I study shallow stacks strategies or hyper-turbo?
BAZOOKASOLDIER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 09:14 AM   #79
stofzuiger
stranger
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
You worded your first post right. You're being told that it isn't necessarily the most profitable strategy if your opponent is significantly deviating from it.
does that mostly go for the calling range or also for the shoving range? I get that one wants a tighter calling range when villain is shoving tigher. But when its you thats shoving its not just about getting your money in good (which is why you'd alter your calling range), but also about fold equity. Do you also adjust your shoving range based on the fact that villain is either tight or loose? I could argue that i'd want a wider shoving range vs a tight villain because i'd get more walks and pick up more blinds. On the other hand i could argue i should tighten my shoving range vs a tight villain in order to get more equity when were both all-in?
stofzuiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 01:09 PM   #80
obbudsman
old hand
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,472
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by stofzuiger View Post
does that mostly go for the calling range or also for the shoving range? I get that one wants a tighter calling range when villain is shoving tigher. But when its you thats shoving its not just about getting your money in good (which is why you'd alter your calling range), but also about fold equity. Do you also adjust your shoving range based on the fact that villain is either tight or loose? I could argue that i'd want a wider shoving range vs a tight villain because i'd get more walks and pick up more blinds. On the other hand i could argue i should tighten my shoving range vs a tight villain in order to get more equity when were both all-in?
The more villain folds to open shoves, the more marginal hands you should shift from your limping range to your open shoving range, but the less villain raises your limps, the more you'll want to keep limping.

The more villain calls open shoves, the more strong value hands you should shift from your min-raising range to your open shove range, but the more villain 3bet shoves or iso shoves, the more you'll want to trap.

If your only options would be to shove or fold, you should shove wider the more villain folds, at least at shallow stacks. The fold equity is important, as you can win a relatively large portion of your stack. It's more important than your equity the few times you are called. The more villain calls open shoves, the tighter you should open shove, up to the point where he calls so wide that you'll want to widen your open shove range with marginal hands for value.
obbudsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 01:35 PM   #81
Russki_Standart
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 115
Re: ** Official Spin and Go's Discussion Thread **

What software are people using when learning spin&go ? I'm searching something basic easy to use software.
Russki_Standart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 02:12 PM   #82
coon74
self-banned
 
coon74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: preparing to have the last laugh
Posts: 9,997
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by stofzuiger View Post
'Cause i read a few different articles on that and they were all pretty corresponding on the fact that HU <11BB the optimal strat is always to use the push/fold charts based on nash calcs? I am talking about chart like these:
http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/headsup/
http://www.headsupsitandgo.com/husng-0-11-big-blinds/
We're talking more advanced strategy here than the one presented at those lol affiliate sites oriented at people who're totally new to poker in general.

The 'push/fold Nash' strategy would be optimal only if

1) your opponent were using the Nash strategy (they usually don't at the micros)

and

2) you both had only the push and fold buttons; but you also have the limp and raise buttons, which are valuable assets.

I mean, if either you or the opponent ever limp or minraise, the Nash charts don't really apply. In particular, if you limp AA (as a trap), then your pushing range becomes weaker and you can no longer include 86o into it 10 bb deep.

To have an idea of how ranges can be constructed that incorporate limps and minraises, you can read the chapter of Mersenneary's free ebook about ranges 12 bb deep. (<-- that's also FAO BAZOOKASOLDIER)

Also, regarding learning resources, don't forget about the value of Twitch, in particular, there's Pbogz's channel that ran a free seminar yesterday.

Last edited by coon74; 02-09-2016 at 02:32 PM.
coon74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2016, 04:42 PM   #83
BAZOOKASOLDIER
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 6
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74 View Post
To have an idea of how ranges can be constructed that incorporate limps and minraises, you can read the chapter of Mersenneary's free ebook about ranges 12 bb deep. (<-- that's also FAO BAZOOKASOLDIER)

Also, regarding learning resources, don't forget about the value of Twitch, in particular, there's Pbogz's channel that ran a free seminar yesterday.
Thanks, coon74.
BAZOOKASOLDIER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2016, 03:56 AM   #84
Myles316
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 118
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

How difficult is it to learn the 3 handed play? I have never played on stars and never played 3 handed. I recently got back into poker 6 months ago and started playing hypers on 888. I have adjusted roi of 4.5% over 6k games playing $10-$20 buyins. Still tons to learn but im enjoying the games.

I keep hearing about how spins and pokerstars are the future and where the money is it. Am I learning a dead format by playing and studying hyper husngs? Is it worth trying to learn a new format and how difficult would it be? I'd probably start with the coffeepack and go from there if I decide to switch.

All advice is appreciated
Myles316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2016, 11:31 AM   #85
ChicagoRy
 
ChicagoRy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ColoradoRy
Posts: 19,567
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

I don't think hypers are a dead format by any stretch.

I think you can learn either/both, to be honest. Getting 2 handed in Spins, it's so important to be good heads up there, and hyper HUSNGs apply to both their own game and Spins.

Coffee's pack would be a great start for learning about 3 handed play, that's the primary focus of the pack.
ChicagoRy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2016, 01:39 PM   #86
coon74
self-banned
 
coon74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: preparing to have the last laugh
Posts: 9,997
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRy View Post
it's so important to be good heads up there
To be exact, I think that it's more important not to suck vs regs HU because that's whom we face in HUs of Spins most of the time at like $7+ levels The 3-max is where fish is usually skinned, at least partially.
coon74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2016, 09:07 PM   #87
nateofclubs
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 244
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74 View Post
that's whom we face in HUs of Spins most of the time at like $7+ levels
Turn that frown upside down. There are so many weak regs, at least at the 15s where I play.
nateofclubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2016, 09:17 PM   #88
coon74
self-banned
 
coon74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: preparing to have the last laugh
Posts: 9,997
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

There would be one more, but I don't dare grind the 15s

i strive the maximise not the absolute profit but the profit-to-effort/suffering ratio, remember
coon74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2016, 10:06 PM   #89
nateofclubs
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 244
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

This has likely been asked already but do you have any data/idea on what drop in cEV a player should expect jumping from one buyin to the next? I'm interested in particular in the drop jumping from 15 to 30, but it would be nice to know the expected from from 30 to 60 and 60 and 100 also.
nateofclubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2016, 11:16 PM   #90
kobmish
old hand
 
kobmish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Winrate minimizing
Posts: 1,682
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateofclubs View Post
This has likely been asked already but do you have any data/idea on what drop in cEV a player should expect jumping from one buyin to the next? I'm interested in particular in the drop jumping from 15 to 30, but it would be nice to know the expected from from 30 to 60 and 60 and 100 also.
I've seen players go from 6% or so at 15s to around 1% and even lower at 30s. This is somewhat of an extreme obviously, but it will depend mostly on your skills to play regulars as well as mental toughness facing bigger swings. I know this is not the answer you are looking for, but there isn't exact one unfortunately. Some players just can't make the jump to a certain level even if they are doing very well at the lower one, others won't see a difference almost at all.
kobmish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 12:14 AM   #91
Myles316
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 118
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Just played a couple of these twisters on ipoker... they are bizarre, it feels so strange to play 3 handed after grinding husngs for the last 6 months. Both games I played though the payout was 6 to 1. If they are always that good I might have to switch.

I won the first and lost the second.
Myles316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 12:24 AM   #92
Nefirmative
adept
 
Nefirmative's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Illusory
Posts: 1,032
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by nateofclubs View Post
This has likely been asked already but do you have any data/idea on what drop in cEV a player should expect jumping from one buyin to the next? I'm interested in particular in the drop jumping from 15 to 30, but it would be nice to know the expected from from 30 to 60 and 60 and 100 also.
As Kobmish said it depends a lot on your ability to play vs regs and adjust to your opponents. Someone playing a very theoretically sound strategy who doesn't try and exploit leaks might have 70cEV at 15s, 55 at 30s and 45 at 60s while someone who has a very feel based game and is able to intuitively exploit fish might struggle vs better regs and have 80cEV at 15s, 45 at 30s and 25 at 60s.

Note that I pulled these numbers out of thin air and they're definitely not accurate. Don't reference them
Nefirmative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 04:49 AM   #93
coon74
self-banned
 
coon74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: preparing to have the last laugh
Posts: 9,997
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobmish View Post
I've seen players go from 6% or so at 15s to around 1% and even lower at 30s. This is somewhat of an extreme obviously, but it will depend mostly on your skills to play regulars as well as mental toughness facing bigger swings.
I wouldn't say that there are too few regulars at 15s. They might be weak, but they're numerous. And I can't stand Stars' 3-minute blinds forcing me to play HU vs (usually) a limpy / smallballsy reg for a couple of minutes at 15/30 without antes and then 3 minutes at 20/40 I struggle to keep up with 4 tables at Stars and have a constant feeling of being owned in the booty. At iPoker 5s, I just flip at 6 tables and feel like I can earn about the same $20 an hour having fun throughout, yay.

Last edited by coon74; 02-14-2016 at 04:55 AM.
coon74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 06:45 AM   #94
Myles316
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 118
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

I have played about 10 of these 5 euro twisters on ipoker and this is mind blowing. It feels like I'm playing a college home game back in 05. Guys are shoving 97o 25 bb for no reason, calling jams with k3o 16bb, and donk shoving air every 2nd hand.

Are these games usually this bad?

Loving it
Myles316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 06:47 AM   #95
coon74
self-banned
 
coon74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: preparing to have the last laugh
Posts: 9,997
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

10 games are a very small sample... the average opponent is weak, but not as weak as you've described.
coon74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 06:52 AM   #96
Myles316
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 118
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Also I'm sure this has been mentioned but pokertracker doesn't seem to record the correct winnings for these twisters. I just won a 30 and pokertrackers has it as a 10. Does anyone have a quick fix for this?
Myles316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 06:53 AM   #97
Myles316
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 118
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74 View Post
10 games are a very small sample... the average opponent is weak, but not as weak as you've described.
I think I have been lucky with the opponents then. The guys playing 10 euro hypers are a different league to what I have experienced on the 5 twisters.
Myles316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 06:59 AM   #98
coon74
self-banned
 
coon74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: preparing to have the last laugh
Posts: 9,997
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles316 View Post
The guys playing 10 euro hypers are a different league to what I have experienced on the 5 twisters.
This statement is true, however

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles316 View Post
Also I'm sure this has been mentioned but pokertracker doesn't seem to record the correct winnings for these twisters. I just won a 30 and pokertrackers has it as a 10. Does anyone have a quick fix for this?
Ask PT4's support... winnings seem to be recorded correctly for me (after I fix the buy-ins as described here).

Last edited by coon74; 02-14-2016 at 07:04 AM.
coon74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 08:19 AM   #99
Myles316
centurion
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 118
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Thanks man, it seems to be okay now.

How do I get that cEV stat to show? I know its just expected value/# of tourneys but I want the pretty stat like the rest of you
Myles316 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2016, 10:50 AM   #100
mrbambocha
adept
 
mrbambocha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,089
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

PT4 stats settings

What settings do i need to do in PT4 to see my adjusted results?
mrbambocha is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online