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Old 01-30-2016, 05:14 AM   #51
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Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny80 View Post
Vilain seems to be a reg. Am I risking too much putting in 14BB here? I tried putting in a random range for vilain to limp/call here, but it's pulled out of thin air as I have no read really. Against that random range, I have 42% equity. So vilain needs to fold a bit over 50% for the shove to be EV+.

That said, 3x/fold is probably better right?



    Poker Stars, $14.25 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37226806

    Hero (BB): 427 (14.2 bb)
    BTN: 670 (22.3 bb)
    SB: 403 (13.4 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with 9 K
    BTN folds, SB completes, Hero raises to 427 and is all-in, SB folds

    Spoiler:



    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
    3x/callshove > check > 3x/fold to shove >> Iso shove.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Podelapin View Post
    Hi,

    What do you do guys on the turn here in a vacuum? Do I check the turn? It's the third hand of the match. No reads. Do we call otr?
    Thks!

    [converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $4.65 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    BB: 430 (21.5 bb)
    BTN: 630 (31.5 bb)
    Hero (SB): 440 (22 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with 6 T
    BTN folds, Hero completes, BB checks

    Flop: (40) 3 6 2 (2 players)
    Hero bets 32, BB calls 32

    Turn: (104) 5 (2 players)
    Hero bets 60, BB calls 60

    River: (224) Q (2 players)
    Hero checks, BB bets 60, [color="grey"]Hero
    Limp pre is fine, as is opening—they will be very close in EV. Flop is actually very close between bet and check. I slightly prefer checking because our hand is a little too weak to bet on a board texture that is so strong for BB. If we had a bit more equity—a better kicker, or even a back-door flush draw—I'd then slightly prefer betting.

    Turn on the other hand is an extremely clear check. Betting on the flop was already thin, and the turn card strongly improves villain's range making it go to a very clear check. We simply have a fairly weak hand on this texture and are therefore not going to be able to value bet here. I would plan on making it a check/fold unless I had some read or was able to get a sizing tell on the bet and then I would check/call.

    As played, on the river X/F and block bet/fold will run very close in EV. Our opponent's range still is very strong, but because they called the turn bet rather than raising they are a little more capped then they were on the turn (though they will still have strong hands, especially straights) and because they didn't fold to our turn bet they will rarely have particularly weak hands other than some missed diamond draws (some raise flop or turn) and a few missed straight draws (87 and the combos of 7x that didn't fold on turn). This means that once we check we need to fold because villain will have so few bluff combos and will still have a decent amount of very strong hands. On the other hand he still will have a fair number of low pairs, especially pair+draw hands, so we could try to bet very small so that we can get value from some of these weak pairs while avoiding paying off his nuts (and folding out some air that occasionally bluffs us off our hand). Yes we are vulnerable to getting raised, but generally people will bluff even less often versus a blockbet than when checked to so generally the raising range will be very weighted towards very strong hands—exactly the kind of hands that make us happy to fold and thankful we only invested a tiny bet.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Vinny80 View Post
    Against 2 fish. If I was in BB this would be a snap call, but here I feel like it's very very close, what do you do?



    [converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $14.25 Buy-in (15/30 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 3 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37227038

    BTN: 364 (12.1 bb)
    Hero (SB): 778 (25.9 bb)
    BB: 358 (11.9 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 A
    BTN raises to 364 and is all-in,
    This is a spot where 3-way Nash push/fold solutions apply fairly well in most cases—while BU isn't playing exactly push/fold, likely their open shove range will end up fairly similar. According to my charts, A8o is a call here when 13bb and shallower—so it would be a call here but fairly close. A7o is a fold for example. We could consider folding if we have reads BU is open shoving value heavy, or we are in a big multiplier (in order to win-rate maximize and because players are more tight passive).

    Understanding 3-way push/fold is an easy way to get extra edge shallow. Many players make huge mistakes with their shoving and call shove ranges. I have a detailed discussion of 3-way push/fold in my Beating Spins video pack, along with how to use choose the correct effective stack to put into the chart when there is a short stack at the table.
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    Old 01-30-2016, 06:16 AM   #52
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
    Not a fan of video packs because the info is usually either bad, obvious, easy to access in other ways or quickly becomes outdated. That's just my opinion though.
    I think it's easy to consider info to be bad or obvious when you're a strong player, but think about this from the point of view of a player who's beginning to take poker seriously. For a beginning player any info is better than having none--even if it's not 100% accurate chances are that it will be much more accurate than that players starting knowledge except for fringe cases. So in that sense for many players any video-pack--even one with out-dated strategies--will have “good” information. Concepts can often be complicated and abstract until you understand them—and then they become obvious, so lots of material that is obvious to you could be great for others (and there is value in reviewing). So for most players likely most video-packs are good value-for money because they get a lot of hours information (even if it's not top shelf it's a starting point and will accelerate their learning) for a reasonable cost compared to buying coaching. Information isn't that easy to access when you don't know how to evaluate it or what to look for, especially when you're just starting out and on your own—it's hard to know what free content you can trust and how to find it. Once you learn what you can from a video-pack you can simply move your studies to another video pack, consider coaching, or simply take the new-found info and apply to private study and research—you can even use it to help choose your next video-pack or to at least know what to focus on for coaching.

    All that being said, I do feel that the criteria you used in your assessment—quality of information (I want good info!), breadth of information (I want to hear new info!), uniqueness of the content (I don't want to pay for something I can get for free elsewhere!), and universality of content (I want it to be relevant to the games I play!)—is an excellent set of qualities video-packs should aspire to. From personal experience I can tell you that getting all of those things up to the very high specifications of a player of your level is both challenging and time consuming. This means it's very likely that there are many cases where video-packs will fall short on some or all of these qualities compared to others, and so I can see why you'd say that “usually” video-packs don't satisfy your specifications. I always try to hold these values in mind when I create video packs—there's a reason I've made so few. It takes a lot of time to do the research to have information of high quality that would be new to high level players and applicable for as long as possible. It's especially tough when you have to balance this with keeping the pack accessible to new players. In the end there's only so much you can do and only so much time you can spend on a project like this and inevitably compromise must be made. No pack can be absolutely perfect. Different players also benefit in different amounts from different packs. This means everyone must make their own evaluation as to whether a video-pack is worth the investment to them, and should aspire to try to maximize their personal value-for-money.

    Obviously I am going to be somewhat biased because I make and sell video-packs (hey look I've even already mentioned them in a bunch of my previous posts!). But I've also thought long and hard about all of these aspects when building my packs, so I figured I should share my insights into the process
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    Old 01-30-2016, 07:04 AM   #53
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    All of the above is accurate. What I mean to say is that there's no video pack that will turn you into a solid winner at the higher stakes without a huge amount of time and effort in addition which is what many video packs claim or at least imply.

    If your goal is to understand the theory behind a format and get the fundamentals down then a good, recently released videopack is probably decent value for money.
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    Old 01-30-2016, 10:57 AM   #54
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Do we have any Thread here in our forum who shows winrates, chipEV, graphs or sth. like this for a relative huge Sample?
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    Old 01-30-2016, 11:36 AM   #55
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by coffeeyay View Post
    Here's a solid move-up move-down strategy for lower win-rate
    The assumption is that the ITM is independent of the stake is strange. Isn't it +EV to move up even if the ITM at the higher stake is slightly smaller, and then improve the skills so that the ITM grows back to a more 'sustainable' level?

    It would be more plausible if the ITM at the higher limit were assumed to be at least 0.5% less than at the current one. Besides, rakeback still has to be incorporated, even though it's only 30% now. (Life expenses don't depend on the stakes played, whereas rakeback in terms of $/game is up to twice higher at the higher stake. So the assumption that the player cashes all the rakeback out is a stretch.)

    I mean, I trust that the above considerations are handled in your pack, but your post isn't a sufficient ad for it.

    Besides, it looks a bit wrong that both the 35.5% and 36% strategies are viable. Maybe it depends on the number of tables one is comfortable to play (I think 35.5% at 4 tables >> 36% at 2 at ir-Rational sites, but << at Stars/FTP because the net rake per game is too damn high, and actually, in the market equilibrium, 36% at Stars/FTP, where one gets to play more hands per game, must be a lesser/easier achievement than 36% at another site).

    Last edited by coon74; 01-30-2016 at 11:50 AM.
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    Old 01-30-2016, 09:35 PM   #56
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Hello beginners forum. I am trying out the $10 Jackpot tournaments on Full Tilt.

    I have completed 1000 so far. Here are some stats. Looking for general feedback on the stats. I am checking in to see if there are any course corrections I should make now, or if I should just keep continue learning the game.

    I will be graduating from school soon and my goal is to be able to make some money while I look for a good job. This make take months so having some income will be preferable. Even if I can make $500/mth I will be happy. Is that realistic?



    Thank you
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    Old 01-30-2016, 10:06 PM   #57
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ad hoc View Post
    Hello beginners forum. I am trying out the $10 Jackpot tournaments on Full Tilt.

    I have completed 1000 so far. Here are some stats. Looking for general feedback on the stats. I am checking in to see if there are any course corrections I should make now, or if I should just keep continue learning the game.

    I will be graduating from school soon and my goal is to be able to make some money while I look for a good job. This make take months so having some income will be preferable. Even if I can make $500/mth I will be happy. Is that realistic?



    Thank you
    $500 a month is very realistic at those stakes. 2-6 tabling you can make $10-20 an hour, maybe more if you're crushing and should be playing higher.

    Are those stats filtered for just 3h play? Stats can get messed up by mixing with HU otherwise I think.
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    Old 01-30-2016, 10:22 PM   #58
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
    $500 a month is very realistic at those stakes. 2-6 tabling you can make $10-20 an hour, maybe more if you're crushing and should be playing higher.

    Are those stats filtered for just 3h play? Stats can get messed up by mixing with HU otherwise I think.
    Thanks. I am 2 tabling right now. Just taking time to learn the game while I am still in school.

    They are filtered by buyin (10) and number of people in tournament (3). It should be only the $10 jackpot games I have been playing. I assumed the SB and BB hands were much larger than Btn because of the time it is heads up.

    My win rate is currently 37.5% though only over a sample of 1000 games. So I am assuming that is too low to tell, but I am confident that I am winning at least.
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    Old 01-30-2016, 10:46 PM   #59
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ad hoc View Post
    They are filtered by buyin (10) and number of people in tournament (3). It should be only the $10 jackpot games I have been playing. I assumed the SB and BB hands were much larger than Btn because of the time it is heads up.
    This is what I mean. It's hard to know what your stats mean because HU play is completely different than 3h play.

    I recommend you filter just for HU, because that's the easiest place to see mistakes from stats. 3H play depends a lot of what ranges you're using from each position.
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    Old 01-30-2016, 11:09 PM   #60
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
    This is what I mean. It's hard to know what your stats mean because HU play is completely different than 3h play.

    I recommend you filter just for HU, because that's the easiest place to see mistakes from stats. 3H play depends a lot of what ranges you're using from each position.
    Oh I see, I misunderstood. Yes, it is likely where I need the most help too.

    I added a filter for number of players from 2 to 2.

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    Old 01-30-2016, 11:41 PM   #61
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    And for 3 players:

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    Old 01-30-2016, 11:58 PM   #62
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ad hoc View Post
    Oh I see, I misunderstood. Yes, it is likely where I need the most help too.

    I added a filter for number of players from 2 to 2.

    You are much, much too tight from the BB. You should be playing closer to 80% VPIP against strong opponents and a minimum of 50% against fish.

    You should be looser from the sb as well, 80-95% depending on villains and confidence.

    You don't need to make the jump all at once but definitely look to widen up from both positions

    Last edited by Nefirmative; 01-31-2016 at 12:11 AM.
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    Old 01-31-2016, 12:02 AM   #63
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ad hoc View Post
    And for 3 players:

    What mainly jumps out at me is you low vpip from the BB. vs a MR in the BB we can be calling quite wide, especially vs SB open because of pot odds and positional advantage. Look to defend very wide vs BTN fold SB open, 60% minimum.

    You could open bit wider from the BTN but it's probably not a big deal. SB stats look okay but you're probably leaking fairly hard there as well based on your bb/100.

    Hope this helps
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    Old 01-31-2016, 12:07 AM   #64
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
    You are much, much too tight from the BB. You should be playing closer to 80% VPIP, definitely above 50%. Never fold a suited hand to a mr >12.5bb, rarely fold any shallower than that.

    You should be looser from the sb as well, closer to 90%, but you can get away with as little as 80%.

    You don't need to make the jump all at once but definitely look to widen up from both positions
    Thanks. Couple follow up questions.

    I have been minraising whenever I raise, is this right? (I mean unless I am shallow enough to be shoving)

    I don't have a lot of experience playing out of position. Any advice? Should I be donking more heads up OOP? Check raising dry boards?

    Oh, also, a lot of villains just limp their SB heads up and I check. When you say I should be playing 80% VPIP, are you saying I should be raising their limps?

    Finally, how is my 3betting?
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    Old 01-31-2016, 12:08 AM   #65
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
    What mainly jumps out at me is you low vpip from the BB. vs a MR in the BB we can be calling quite wide, especially vs SB open because of pot odds and positional advantage. Look to defend very wide vs BTN fold SB open, 60% minimum.

    You could open bit wider from the BTN but it's probably not a big deal. SB stats look okay but you're probably leaking fairly hard there as well based on your bb/100.

    Hope this helps
    It does, thanks.

    Yeah, I defend against SB a lot but fold to Btn probably more than I should.

    I have trouble playing from SB because I am OOP.
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    Old 01-31-2016, 12:14 AM   #66
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ad hoc View Post
    Thanks. Couple follow up questions.

    I have been minraising whenever I raise, is this right? (I mean unless I am shallow enough to be shoving)

    I don't have a lot of experience playing out of position. Any advice? Should I be donking more heads up OOP? Check raising dry boards?

    Finally, how is my 3betting?
    mring always is totally fine. Donking is rarely good unless you have a good reason for it. Literally never donk betting will hardly impact your winrate at all. Your 3betting is fine. Craising depends a looot on board, villains frequencies and preflop ranges etc. Playing OOP is a very very broad and complex topic so this isn't really the place to get too deep into it.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ad hoc View Post
    It does, thanks.

    Yeah, I defend against SB a lot but fold to Btn probably more than I should.

    I have trouble playing from SB because I am OOP.
    You can be very tight vs BTN opens because most people open a very strong range. Against SB you should really be defending almost everything.
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    Old 01-31-2016, 12:22 AM   #67
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
    mring always is totally fine. Donking is rarely good unless you have a good reason for it. Literally never donk betting will hardly impact your winrate at all. Your 3betting is fine. Craising depends a looot on board, villains frequencies and preflop ranges etc. Playing OOP is a very very broad and complex topic so this isn't really the place to get too deep into it.



    You can be very tight vs BTN opens because most people open a very strong range. Against SB you should really be defending almost everything.
    Got it, thanks. Definitely an area to work on in my game.

    One final question about BB VPIP when heads up. You recommend 80% but a lot of the time villain limps and I check to avoid inflating a pot OOP with meager holdings.

    I believe that is part of the reason why my VPIP is so low. Should I be raising their limps more?
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    Old 01-31-2016, 12:23 AM   #68
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ad hoc View Post
    Got it, thanks. Definitely an area to work on in my game.

    One final question about BB VPIP when heads up. You recommend 80% but a lot of the time villain limps and I check to avoid inflating a pot OOP with meager holdings.

    I believe that is part of the reason why my VPIP is so low. Should I be raising their limps more?
    Those hands aren't counted towards VPIP at all so they'll have no effect on that stat at all. 99% sure on this.
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    Old 02-02-2016, 04:21 PM   #69
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread



    Just want to double check that you can expect this as standard in Spins? It's over on Betfair and with antes, which took a little getting used to. The above graph is this year and my total cev at this level was 62/63 I think before the mega down swing and now sits at 54.

    I maybe mean like how standard... How often etc...

    Can anybody help with iso-raise OOP either AI or NAI on PT4 and also actually how the HUD can swap between three-handed and HU automatically? !!
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    Old 02-02-2016, 06:08 PM   #70
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Can somebody give a broad answer to what expected ROI should be for Spin & Go's, perhaps showing a low ROI, average ROI, and the ROI of the best players. I've played 7000 tournaments to date and I'm sat at 7% - trying to get some kind of comparison.
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    Old 02-02-2016, 08:34 PM   #71
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Anyone knows what is the rake for the Twisters on ipoker?
    Thx!!!
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    Old 02-02-2016, 08:47 PM   #72
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iiil Capitaaano View Post
    Anyone knows what is the rake for the Twisters on ipoker?
    Thx!!!
    6.9% at all stakes, last I heard.
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    Old 02-08-2016, 05:28 PM   #73
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Can anyone give me some pointers on calling ranges when the effective stack is >12bb? when you're HU its pretty clear using the nash calcs. But so often i see people openshoving 3 handed within the first couple of hands dealt. Usually (because i 99% of the time have 0 info on villain) i call pretty tight, like 88+, AJs+, Aqo+. Is this too tight vs a random villain?
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    Old 02-08-2016, 06:44 PM   #74
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stofzuiger View Post
    when you're HU its pretty clear using the nash calcs.
    No, it isn't. Vs a passive rec, you're better off calling tighter than Nash; vs a maniac, obviously much wider; whereas vs a reg, you have to figure out what hand types are in his openshoving range as opposed to minraise/fold - a default reg shoves a capped range while minraising (limps at <12 bb) a polarised range of nuts and rags, and the optimal calling range vs this strategy is a bit looser than Nash.

    Now let some non-fish correct me
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    Old 02-08-2016, 09:11 PM   #75
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    Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

    That all seems accurate
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