Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos Discussion of heads up Sit & Go and Spin and Go poker games. Sponsored by HUSNG.com, the leading heads up poker video site.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-21-2016, 06:05 PM   #1
ChicagoRy
 
ChicagoRy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ColoradoRy
Posts: 19,457
Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Post questions or hands in here!
ChicagoRy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2016, 06:56 PM   #2
nateofclubs
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 244
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

I like this idea... not enough hh's being posted in the other spin thread. As in, almost none.
nateofclubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2016, 09:00 PM   #3
coffeeyay
 
coffeeyay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 3,490
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Great idea! I'd be happy to help out in this thread, I'm open to questions
coffeeyay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2016, 11:40 PM   #4
Vinny80
old hand
 
Vinny80's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Value check folding
Posts: 1,656
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeeyay View Post
Great idea! I'd be happy to help out in this thread, I'm open to questions
I got one about my redline. It's going down too fast imo. Do you think in shallow stack games like spins, preflop or postflop is where I should be focusing my attention if I'm to improve my non-showdown winnings?
Vinny80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2016, 11:54 PM   #5
Nefirmative
adept
 
Nefirmative's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Illusory
Posts: 1,032
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Your preflop game has to be fairly solid. Preflop mistakes will be smaller but are much more frequent than specific postflop mistakes. Bad ranges pre also hurt you postflop.

Don't worry about your redline, focus on making the best decisions each hand. Plenty of crushers have a losing redline. Your redline will go up the more you're betting and the bigger you're betting because people will fold more.
Nefirmative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 12:33 AM   #6
coffeeyay
 
coffeeyay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 3,490
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
Your preflop game has to be fairly solid. Preflop mistakes will be smaller but are much more frequent than specific postflop mistakes. Bad ranges pre also hurt you postflop.

Don't worry about your redline, focus on making the best decisions each hand. Plenty of crushers have a losing redline. Your redline will go up the more you're betting and the bigger you're betting because people will fold more.
^this

The issue with the red line is that it's not a good predictor of EV. This is because there will be many decisions that are very close in EV, but have drastically different results in terms of red line vs blue line earnings (examples include bluff catching on river and thin value betting).

The one use in examining them is that if one of the lines is drastically worse than other winning regs then this gives an indicator of the types of places you should look for leakfinding. However, even in this case it's not the best of indicators anyways because the losses can be coming from a number of different spots and not all of them will be worth the same leakbusting EV. Some leaks will be unimportant to change while others will be very important, and the red line gives no ideas as to where these spots are or how important they are.

Cliffs: Ignore red/line blue line. Your time is better spent elsewhere.
coffeeyay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 02:53 AM   #7
KingFiveOff
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 82
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

I'm somewhat new to spins, and honestly I suck. What is the best way to study and improve my game, other than actually playing? Should I just go through and replay a ton of hands in my session and look over the mistakes that I made?

Last edited by KingFiveOff; 01-22-2016 at 03:10 AM.
KingFiveOff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 03:34 AM   #8
Nefirmative
adept
 
Nefirmative's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Illusory
Posts: 1,032
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

HH review is the most effective way to study on your own, especially as a beginner. Mark every spot you're unsure of while playing and be sure to review 100% of those hands. When I started spins I was marking 10+ hands per tournament, now that I'm more sure of preflop stuff it's more like 3-4. Be sure to occasionally review whole tournaments as well, especially long ones that you feel you could have played better. It's impossible to notice all your mistakes during your session.

When you feel more confident in your game and your progress is starting to stagnate get an hour or two of coaching per week. There's a lot of value in studying at least as much as you play especially when you're playing lower stakes. In the long run those study hours will make you more money than playing.

If you can find good video content then watching videos and actively taking notes is good too. If you're not taking notes you're probably not learning much.
Nefirmative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 05:16 AM   #9
chaosad
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 969
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Hello,

i┤ve played so far 1600 games and mixed the buyins.
Here is my complete graph



and the stats:


I know the samplesize is very small, but I think I dont beat the game even though I have a lot of microgames in my stats.

I┤m very confused
chaosad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 06:02 AM   #10
Nefirmative
adept
 
Nefirmative's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Illusory
Posts: 1,032
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

What's the question? You're beating the games by a fair bit in both EV and real $
Nefirmative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 06:52 AM   #11
chaosad
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 969
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

so just look at chipsEV/turnie and start grinding the 7$ with a good volume?
ok thank you
chaosad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 12:38 PM   #12
nateofclubs
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 244
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosad View Post
so just look at chipsEV/turnie and start grinding the 7$ with a good volume?
ok thank you
cEV/game is what matters with respect to whether or not you're beating a level, so as long as your bankroll is big enough to handle the inevitable downswing that will come after a large sample, then ya play 7's. However you have only played 110 games so far which is a tiny sample, so you need to play a lot more to decide if you actually belong there skill-wise or not.
nateofclubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 12:52 PM   #13
Arkaitz
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 71
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

CHAOSAD

Not enough sample , try to make 1000gs at 7s or 15s and post that

gl
Arkaitz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 03:34 PM   #14
coffeeyay
 
coffeeyay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 3,490
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

^all correct, cEV is best estimator of future performance but with small samples it's a very weak indicator so build up sample So far your EV results have been great, so just keep on grinding!

Also, thought I'd link to a thread about opening size in SB when BU open folds since it's a common question that pops up and is worth thinking about.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...n-gos-1581726/
coffeeyay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 04:37 PM   #15
Curt256
newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 21
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Are these spin and gos really that soft? Some dude was telling me the other day, that he can't beat NL5, but makes 10$/hour playing 7$ spin and gos. He claims that he earned 500$ in two weeks.
Curt256 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 05:00 PM   #16
Nefirmative
adept
 
Nefirmative's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Illusory
Posts: 1,032
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt256 View Post
Are these spin and gos really that soft? Some dude was telling me the other day, that he can't beat NL5, but makes 10$/hour playing 7$ spin and gos. He claims that he earned 500$ in two weeks.
First of all NL Cash and spins are very different games requiring very different skillsets. 100bb play compared to <25bb play, 6 or 9 player tables vs 3 handed and HU play.

Spin and gos have very recreational heavy player pools relative to their stakes, most winning players from other formats could easily transition to low stakes spins and increase their hourly if they're playing similar stakes.

Spins get much tougher at each stake above 15s though. The 5% rake means you have to be crushing the field to make a profit. On top of this if you're only a marginal winner the swings can be huge and profit relies on hitting and ideally winning large multipliers if you have under a 2%EVROI.
Nefirmative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 05:01 PM   #17
coffeeyay
 
coffeeyay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 3,490
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curt256 View Post
Are these spin and gos really that soft? Some dude was telling me the other day, that he can't beat NL5, but makes 10$/hour playing 7$ spin and gos. He claims that he earned 500$ in two weeks.
They are definitely very good EV hourly (though with a fair bit of variance). I think earning a bit over stake/hour (ie at 7s bit over $7/hour) is a reasonable expectation value (though of course it will depend on # of tables and relative skill level for your stakes). The low stakes are indeed very soft (though they're also very soft at HUSNGs).

Just be aware of the variance, you should want to ask that dude whether he's reporting his EV hours, if so whether he's computing EVroi correctly (ie using chipEV), and lastly ask for his sample size before believing his results fully.
coffeeyay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 08:04 PM   #18
minamo99
journeyman
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 219
SpinandGo questions

-Which is more profitable in the long run , HU or SnG and why?

-How much Buying do I need for Sng/hu? (tried with 50BI, but if you have 2 bad days that goes down rapidly)

lategame when the blinds get superhigh it feels more like gambling to me. Any lategame tips for someone thats pretty new to this format?


Any recommended books for Spin and go? or HU ones that can apply to both ofc.

Cheers!
minamo99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 08:27 PM   #19
Nefirmative
adept
 
Nefirmative's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Illusory
Posts: 1,032
Re: SpinandGo questions

HU SnG or Spin and go? Depends on the stakes and the player

HU Hypers you'd want 100-200, Spins 200+ unless you're a total crusher at lower stakes.

Even at 10bb there is a lot of room for adjustments and exploiting your opponents. It's very important to understand what a solid preflop strat looks like at this depth and then adjust when your opponents deviate from this.

There aren't really any spins books.
Nefirmative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 09:23 PM   #20
generic91
newbie
 
generic91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 29
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

NEt expected chips won = to ev chips ? rigth?

how mani (ev chips/number of games) have a solid player? in 7 or 15?
generic91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 09:33 PM   #21
Nefirmative
adept
 
Nefirmative's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Illusory
Posts: 1,032
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Yep.

55+ Is smooth sailing and makes it difficult to have long losing stretches. A 60s or 100s crusher could probably have 100 if it was worth their time. 45+ Means you're doing a lot right but have a lot of basic stuff to improve.
Nefirmative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 10:00 PM   #22
coffeeyay
 
coffeeyay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 3,490
Re: SpinandGo questions

This is what the beginner's thread is for :P

Generally spins are a little more profitable than Hypers given same stakes, but the variance is also higher and therefore needed bankroll is higher.

I think the BI recommendations from nefirmative are a little too conservative. If you're willing to move down 50 for hypers and 100 for spins is often fine. But it depends a ton on your expected winrate, and in general it's better to be too conservative than too aggressive--particularly if you're not good at moving down.

As far as info, the only good book is Mers' free e-book available through husng.com. It's HU specific, and a bit out of date, but it's still a solid starting place. Will Tipton's Expert No Limit Hold'em volumes 1 and 2 are a fantastic resource for HU but are decidedly more advanced and difficult--to get a lot out of them you'll have to put in a lot of work.

As for spins, there's really only video packs. Mine (Beating Spin and Go Poker, available on husng.com) has a section about variance and bankroll management (as well as 14 hours of other content!). There's also tons of free content on husng.com you can check out to give you some ideas (including a million dollar spin and go!).

And yeah, shallow stack poker is still pretty complicated and nuanced. Even 5bb GTO strategies have limping ranges, but 5bb is around where push/fold and full GTO start converging (in both strategy and EV). Deeper than that play is decidedly not push/fold So definitely look into solid shallow stack strategy and be willing to limp a lot.
coffeeyay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 11:18 PM   #23
nateofclubs
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 244
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefirmative View Post
Yep.

55+ Is smooth sailing and makes it difficult to have long losing stretches. A 60s or 100s crusher could probably have 100 if it was worth their time. 45+ Means you're doing a lot right but have a lot of basic stuff to improve.
55 is pretty good, but I wouldn't go so far as saying it's smooth sailing. You are going to have a lot of short-term streaks that drive you mental, partly due to the fact that even if you are a 55 cEV player it's hard to actually know it because by the time you play enough games to have a reliable sample the game will have gotten tougher.
nateofclubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2016, 11:38 PM   #24
nateofclubs
journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 244
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

What's the minimum cEV you would suggest before moving up in stakes provided you have the br? I have 900 buyins at my current level but have always been such a wuss when it comes to moving up.
nateofclubs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2016, 12:17 AM   #25
iiil Capitaaano
newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 28
Re: Spin and Go Beginners Thread

Hey great thread for us begginers! I play HU HT of 50 cents, but I should probably move to spins coz I've heard that you can reach bigger EV ROI. Is there any Twitch streamer who plays spins?
Thx!!!
iiil Capitaaano is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online