Hey,

here's the hand...






Ok so i'm reading this push/fold chart: http://www.holdemresources.net/h/poker-theory/hune.html

So let me get this straight... I can push with Q4 with 16.3BB's here.

But to push Q4 i have to have 7.9BB's or less?... Am i reading this correctly?

petesgotaces

Yes, you are reading it correctly.

Now, whether you are applying it correctly or not is a different matter. Remember, in order for pushing Q,4s to be profitable, you should also be jamming Aces, Kings, Queens, and all those other hands that may be jammed for more than 16.3bbs. This is a +EV but far from optimal way to play that range of hands, and thus most people only recommend using NASH at 6-8bb deep.

GL

You are reading it correctly. According to Nash if you shove it will be unexploitable.

Try to use this table for only when you're under 10BB...or even lower if you're comfortable playing with short effective stacks.

Thanks for your replies.

petesgotaces

Exactly this ^^

if you want to shove nash you have to shove the whole nash range, I don't like nash chart very much people misapply it constantly

If you just shove nash you can can still shove 45% of your hands from the SB which isn't so bad. I recommend it as a good strategy against "tricky" players. If you shove pre they can't abuse you postflop. I think that's a lot of the reason good players don't recommend it. They want to bluff you out of the hand postflop.

If you raise 3x you're almost pot committed.

If you raise 2x you're putting yourself in some ugly situations but it's fine to do.

I like limp or shove.

It seems like BB has the advantage of you use push/fold but maybe this is to be expected since BB has position.

I'm not sure how much future game simulation changes the results.... I don't have access to it right now.

nash sucks =(

Nash is useful in a sense, treat it as more of a guideline and adjust based on villains tendencies. Forget about nash calling ranges, they will get you in trouble....

You can use NASH calling range when you're reeeally short though...for example, when you have 4BB and you know your opponent is shoving pretty much any 2 cards.

Blindly following the chart is at least reasonable if (and more or less only if) villain is playing shove-or-fold from the SB imo (regardless of stacks).

why nash sucks?

I've seen lots of comments here about the useability of the Nash Charts. Most of the comments are normal poker rants of "it depends". The Nash Charts are designed for an optimal push/fold strategy. The "it depends" are nuances based on your read of the situation of which you find yourself. If you do not understand the nuances and the effect they have on the Nash Strategy then it is a DUH! Use the charts...plain and simple. Or am I missing something? I've been known to do that.

Marston, you're being reasonable if you're talking about something like 9bb effective stacks or less and you're talking about following the chart with little to no hand exceptions.

If you're talking about 10-20bb, you should really do some work to come up with a better strategy than following a shove or fold strategy. And if you mean "when I'm not sure what to do with a hand" you shouldn't be just going to nash, because it's meant as an overall strategy, not to do with an individual hand when you choose to.

The best you can do at 10-20bb with a push fold type chart is to look at sklansky-chubokov and say "well, I at least should not be folding this hand if I turned it face up, so I can eliminate fold from my decision."

The short answer is that push-fold charts are utilized in far greater situations than they should be by many players. Some can definitely be useful in certain areas, but the temptation to have an easy black or white decision without having to think is too great for many players, so they are often misused.

I was referring to the calling chart, that is, BB strategy -- sorry if it was unclear.

The charts describe the "optimal" strategies (see sticky in the poker theory subforum for discussion of what "optimal" actually means and what guarantees playing such a strategy actually gets you) in a purely shove-or-fold situation. Real poker is not that, so trying to use those strategies in real poker won't get you those guarantees, and in fact can be pretty bad.