I dont really think its awful as long as they are not mismanaged, which unfortunately can happen imho. Some form of this have always existed.
I dont think anybody wants blind lobbies and the devision system is a decent solution. The cartel enviroment forces an increase of the skill level of people who have to fight their way in, making them battle tested.

But i dont think there are other formats where so many great players are held from moving up at the mid/low end of high stakes.
Its just expensive to move up, you need to be able to handle swings, you need rake money to burn and not to mention you need to be able to produce the samples required.

It also forces people to hunt the weakest regs ruthlessly, not giving them room to breathe. Its hard to avoid getting hunted, because group members cant show weakness, they are always at risk of being kicked.

If that were true, that would be ICM.
There is no ICM however, and stack size compared to other 2 plays no part in Spin & Go's. Its pure Chip EV calculations.

Cartels are pretty bad. Only players in cartels like cartels. Everyone else doesn't. But I am not sure that blind lobbies are better. Maybe something like zoom, where its random but you can see who is playing and make a decision of whether or not to join current mix of players.

Right, even a simple 'X players at Y tables in the $Z pool' line can do wonders. It would have no downsides - even retain anonymity - while we'd roughly know the percentage of multitablers in the pool.

I guess what genher meant by the importance of the stack size is that the effective stack size is the second biggest stack size, and the setup where (at blinds 30/60) Hero (button) has 6 bb, SB has 9 bb and BB has 10 bb (hence the effective stack is 9 bb and Hero is the shortie) is very different from a 9/6/10 (equiv to 9/6/9) or a 10/9/6 (~9/9/6) setup (say, if BTN and SB both push, BB will face the prospect of playing the side pot vs SB in the first case but vs BTN in the second case, which will make ranges different). whereas in a HU hand, it doesn't matter whose stack is shorter.

When a group is a VIP level essentially, it is entirely fair and it's pretty crappy to talk down about it.

When the VIP level turns into "good ole boys club" then it becomes crap and is totally fair to rip on and call BS.

Clear difference between the two. "only people in" comments I disagree with. I mean, only the people that make six figures in this game are probably satisfied with their results, what does that mean though?

If a "cartel" is really a group that is clearly the best at any level, it is nothing to be upset about, it's actually progression in this game (making regs fight regs and allowing those that made it through be rewarded). The issue is when some subjectivity comes up where people try to block others out, that's when the BS happens.

But stat based inclusion is not BS at all, it's actually a step in the right direction and it's about damned time regs fought other regs on the reg.

Thanks coon74 that's roughly what I meant.

Yes I agree reg should fight reg but at an individual level. That's no justification for a cartel. Q is right cartel have upset and drove away many players from HUSNG.

Now that the fishes are playing spin and go, I would like to see how the cartels will go after chasing away the weak regs. Some good story about greed, stupidity and a golden goose.

Anyways, I can do this forum thing anymore...

MTT regs and regs from god knows what formats discussing dEvisions, cause they have huge knowledge about the economy in husngs and the hu play itself.

does know how the $ev line is working on PT4? Some times it seems to take the actual prize pool into consideration other times not.

It accounts for the actual prize pool every time when the prizes are written into the HH file, i.e. when the last hand played by the HH copy holder determined the winner - either if the holder finished 1st or 2nd or if two players went bust in the last hand of the tourney. If the holder busted out in 3rd and the game continued for at least one hand after it, the prizes aren't written into the file, and PT4 acts under the assumption (in lack of a better option) that the prize pool was average - 2.88 BIs (at $7+).

Regarding cartels (imo, and I'm of course not a HU reg, exactly because I hate cartels, as well as the lobby state before them; 6-max allows for a fairer distribution of fishes' money), reg-on-reg violence is -EV to the player pool because a lot of rake gets paid before fishes' deposits are distributed among the regs properly.

A better solution would involve test play money home games (for entrance into the cartel) instead of real money ones

That's a problem, so you need to manual edit? I'm finding my notes are sometimes available and sometimes not. Someone should make a good hud. First customer here...

Ok thanks. Makes sense, that would explain why my $ev line is running away from my actual winnings.

What exactly is an individual level?
Back in the day people could play a stake by being friendly to others and avoiding war, well, games got tougher, people moved up. It was about time to clean up the stakes and good regs decided to do that.
People get upset because queues are long, then they are upset about a cartel forming. Weak regs get upset about not getting in and having to put some work in, bumhunting regs get upset about having to war the weak regs.

Im not sure exactly whom it drove away from husng, surely not fish. Maybe some fishregs who were taking up occasional lobby were not happy about moving down and quit, but those were hardly beating the fish and hardly worth playing for regs. Essentially their ego got hurt and they got upset because they were not good enough. It was just a matter of time before somebody bothered to bust them.

Cartels are prospering, there are more lobbies for the best regs and people are making money/moving up.
The spin and goes are so much worse, the two are not remotely comparable. They are taking the fish and regs cant follow them to play lottery.

Fishregs and regs that don't want to handle drama and politics. It's unfortunate, some good regs also left due to the drama and politics, but at the end of the day, there's only one player type that a reg should really be upset about leaving, and there's no real evidence of anyone leaving due to reg divisions (which makes sense bc they have no real impact on losing players).

Hell, if you're a losing player, would you rather have a bunch of pros fighting each other AND you or would you rather have a bunch of pros waiting to fight you? You probably don't care all that much, but if you have to pick, odds are you pick the former.

I agree with Genher that regs should just sit each other individually. But it's not realistic in this environment. The registration software makes it harder, not easier, to do that, and the actual software and lobby situation isn't really conducive to that. Also, there's no accountability factor. So yes, in theory, great, individuals just sit each other. But that's not realistic in this environment, thus groups started. I think I've typed that 80x this year.

^ guys please take this debate elswhere or just accept that not everyone shares your opinion

On topic: Spin and gos seem like a lot of fun, battlenet is very refreshing and recreationals love them so they seem to bring a lot of extra money in to the game. Variance has it upsides too or can be traded away if youre not a degen like me

Posting to request a stars representative look at the thread i started with suggestions for fixes to the sng problem that spin and go's created.

You've killed every other sng, at least make these grindable for regulars and balance out the sng world, not only would it help balance out things but you would generate more rake, and casuals wouldn't bust their rolls so darn fast due to its distributions.

solutions for making the games better for regs
-deal button: cmon stars even the fish are begging to deal when jackpots go off, its the first question that goes in chat. It would also drop variance significantly, you have it on FTP why not stars?
-ICM, did u have to make it 80/10/10? why not 70/20/10 or something! you guys implimented this on FTP and not stars?
-Reduce the multiplier or change the frequencies so its not so top heavy...
this would decrease variance but still keep fish interested with the gamble slogan you wanted...throw us a bone


forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36/stt-strategy/spin-goes-overview-solution-1480832/#post44907454

Thread i was hoping you guys would look at

I do enjoy these tournaments alot, feels like you playing a normal tournament and when you lucky you will make a "final table" an play for 30k.

What do you guys think about having a diffrent blind structure for each "tier" tournament..
Working on the 30$.

Lets say you get the tier 1 60$, the structure would be quickest hyper turbo,
you get the 120$ tier 2 the structure little bit slower, etc etc.. goes on like this untill the $36k where you would have the slowest structure...

It would also be nice if all the last tiers would get recorded and whole cards shown with a more decent structure.. And then i feel like there is no need to make deals..

I think this would be the only solutions for the people complaining about variance, that when they do play the bigger ones there is a better structure...

Dont know how pokerstars would ever test something like this... But i wish it was though about before...
But they probably do this because they want the fish to get lucky , even though some fish would also rather play with deeper structure because it is more of a game...

And ya lastly... I really hate the deals... Hate when people ask for it... hate when people do it... Its nice that they have the observe options, it nice to watch the big ones... Even though you cannot see cards... and it would really be **** if people get the big ones and just chop and all in finish...

I was thinking in beginning they should not give 2nd and 3rd 3k , it would be better if 2nd and 3rd got 0 and winner 36k, but ok... that would be a bit rough... But there is no need for deal making...

((like the wcoop main event i watched till the deal... and then when it was hu)

i dislike the idea of not being able to deal. You sound like your a casual player who just enjoys gambling, your not dealing with this game as a source of income. And your also ignoring the fact that people who hit the jackpot probably see $12k chops as huge money already...

While i respect that your entitled to your own opinion i think that a lot of people would definitely prefer a deal option. And the idea of 36k winner take all sounds really brutal, fish would complain and vairance would skyrocket even more for regs.

As far as changing structure goes for higher buyins i think thats also a bit silly to claim that regs no longer would care, the variance is still huge. Unless your looking at making it 100-200bb starting with 10minute levels i don't think its going to make a significant difference....

Pretty sure I reduced my EVroi to 0 yday but binked a 750

$ is all that matters INNIT

Well, that's true... but only for those who bink

You're getting so hooked on these that it's time to change your location to 'LOLslottaments'

Hahaha yea I rly should change it huh fwiw I m only playing them to get nova asap, I ve been getting 300vpp an hour which is a LOT for me. We ll see how they turn out after I m done. 3k vpp left

^Highest variance way to get VPP's ever. Good thing you ended up in the positive side of variance

Dear Pokerstars,

This is a letter I'm writting you with all my sincere honesty:

Although you may (or may not, I may be wrong) be getting more $ with introduction of Spin & Gos, it is destroying the games and it won't be beneficial short-mid-long term, to anyone.

I clearly think those games should either be deleted from the client. Or at least suffer some serious changes in the payout structure. This is not just my oppinion, look, it's ******* everywhere:

- http://tiltbook.com/masuronike/blog/...o-tournaments/
- http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...ormat-1480774/
- http://tiltbook.com/quadvquadme/blog...and-solutions/

What made Pokerstars Pokerstars, until now, was the fact that you always listened to your customers and made the poker games/experience enjoyable. And beneficial for everyone, both parties. I even remember you used to make massive e-mail surveys. Now all you do is change things without anyone's consent (only internal consent). And the players, which are the biggest and most important part of the equation, are not in any way shape or form, listened, before making those very important decisions.

Sorry, but "WE ARE POKER" is clearly a farse lie.

Funny site. Some calculations that show only $1,168 from the lower pay-outs over 100k sample. Conveniently left out that in top 3 you also get 2nd/3rd prizes that would add another $25,500 if you'd actually lose every single one of them. So yeah over a 100k sample size, assuming you lose ALL the top 3 pay-outs and run average in the rest, you're still at 0.89% roi instead of the 0.04% he's implying. Not a lot but losing 30/30 top prizes with supposedly 36% first place is a ridic statement.

You seem to be confused here. You =/= all of pokerstars customers. Spin and go's are crazy popular. I deposited a bit again to donk around in them, so did some of my friends. They're just not popular to (some of) the regs?

Thanks for the clarification Spamz. Honestly i dont think PS gonna change much to please us regs to lower variance to make it easier for us but at least we can try. But frankly i think with their market dominance right now they just dont need to pay too much attention to us regs so they can allow for some pissed off regs who dont get their will since basically 99% other poker sites on this planet operate similar (or worse in many aspects) to stars... so i guess if we invest that time we bitch into our game we might have more from it.

Yea. Also, I don't think he includes RB (at least he doesn't mention it), which is just silly. Money is money. And while 30 SNGs determining such a huge portion of our profit is concerning, how many big FTs do MTT grinders make every year? How are those FTs not determining their profit?

Also agreed. I am definitely concerned that my bread and butter reg speed SNGs are drying up with so many of the fish being attracted into the Spin and Gos. It could end up costing me my poker career, or maybe I'll adapt and make more money. Time will tell. But trying to argue that these Spin and Gos don't benefit anyone when they are ridiculously popular among recreational players, and are amassing a ludicrous amount of rake for Stars, is a losing proposition. I don't care what a handful of SNEs say.

Hah, good point! Even forgot about that. 100k $30s is $120k in rake? That's 630k vpp's right? Even assuming that's not done full in 1 year, you're at least looking at supernova level rakeback which is 28% at the least. So yeah add another $33,600 MINIMUM to that (200k milestone bonuses etc not even considered) and you're at 2.01% roi given that you lose ALL your top 3 pay-out ones.