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***HU SNG REGS THREAD*** ***HU SNG REGS THREAD***

10-22-2009 , 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras345
My guess would be that the 10% and 15% players do it rather regularly. But I also guess that no player with long-term 0% ROI has ever seen a single run like this. I would actually be surprised if a 5% ROI player ever did it.
Considering a 0 % ROI player has approx 0.16 % chance of making a run like that over 100 games I would say it's very, very, very likely someone has. With 5 % ROI chances are 0.5 %, so most regs with a similar ROI have experienced the pleasure.

And I've had more than 30 %+ over 100 tournaments, and I've also had -30 % over 100 tournaments.
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10-22-2009 , 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pulaski
i just lost to this guy, wtf am i doing?


Full Tilt Poker $20 + $1 Heads Up No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BB): t1265 M = 16.87
BTN/SB: t1735 M = 23.13

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is BB with 7 3
BTN/SB calls t25, Hero checks

Flop: (t100) T 3 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

Turn: (t100) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

River: (t100) J (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

Final Pot: t100
Hero shows 7 3 (a pair of Threes)
BTN/SB shows 9 8 (a straight, Queen high)
BTN/SB wins t100
Let me know when you find out, so I can stop doing it, too.
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10-22-2009 , 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras345
Yes, I might have misworded that. I did not mean to imply that I am going to start and keep winning at 40%. What I meant, was this was my first 100 games playing HU SNG seriously (other than a few casual games here an there as a break from cash games). I realize I made several mistakes and it cost me 3 -4 matches. I hope to improve that going forward and not make those mistakes. So yes, if I have a similar 100 in the future, I think it could be 35+%. Likewise, what might be a 40 – 60 record in the future with the way I played this first 100 will hopefully only be a 44 – 56 record.




Thanks, so so far only 2 people have reported they had a 30% ROI run over 100 tournies. Respectively, they state they are 10% and 13% long-term ROIers.

This is the data I am looking for. Any other players have a 30% ROI run over 100 tournies?
25% over 134 games (last week) $50s
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10-22-2009 , 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11t
for ****s sakes work on your game and not posting in this thread
is this another ploy to try to get me to sign up for HUSNG.COM?

I'm studying mientjeuh...so yeah i'll pass BRO.
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10-22-2009 , 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pondus
And I've had more than 30 %+ over 100 tournaments, and I've also had -30 % over 100 tournaments.
Quote:
25% over 134 games (last week) $50s
Thanks guys, I guess I should have asked for one more thing:

If you have done it, do you mind telling your long-term ROI also.
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10-22-2009 , 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11t
You are at 50xbb, your fold equity preflop is basically the same for a minraise, a 2.5xbb raise or a 3xbb raise so I prefer to play small ball and minraise. Obviously if you know they aren't paying attention and will call like a 5xbb raise with AA then raise 5xbb with AA but I am a donkey and balance my range preflop even when I don't need to.

Again, betting 1/2 the pot on the flop does the exact same thing as betting the pot but you lose less money when they shove or check/raise or when they call.

The only hands that you are racing and not WB are sets/2pair. If you want to call feel free but get on pokerstove and look at ranges and you will see how god awful calling is.
You packed a lot of wise commentary in a short post. I do appreciate it. I understand your point about making it 60 or 75 instead of auto-90. I do mix it up and make it 60 with some hands, I just happened to pot it with the medium king. I haven't made it 75 before, I will consider that as well.

I've thought the same thing about making it 5x with a monster preflop if they are a calling station but even a calling station will figure out eventually that 5x is a tell of great strength so it might work only once or twice against someone. I think you're right to balance your range even when you don't need to as it makes it harder to put you on a hand. They will see enough showdowns to know you can have AA sometimes with your 2.5x raise preflop and not just the garden variety buttonraise crap (J8o, Q2s, etc.). That also earns you respect so you don't get repopped preflop with those medium strength hands when you are in position. As much.

It's interesting the villain check-raised all-in rather than raising pot or thereabouts. "Strong means weak" came to mind as I struggled to decide how to respond. Or he could have a baby flush, who knows.
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10-22-2009 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sejje
That's really not quite as bad as you're making it out to be. I get far, far worse calls than that all the time.
At first I thought you were leveling him but taking another look at that board, it seems the villain was calling to prevent what he thought was a steal attempt at his half of the chop (playing the board). He might have thought a bet there is either really strong (like what hero had) or a bluff, and more likely the latter, and decided to look hero up at least for the info.

So Sejje, post a couple of these worse calls you get all the time LOL.
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10-22-2009 , 06:37 PM
woo back to even

fk u thursday
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10-22-2009 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnyberretta
is this another ploy to try to get me to sign up for HUSNG.COM?

I'm studying mientjeuh...so yeah i'll pass BRO.
sorry you asked for a coach and I threw out something that is cheap and has a decent amount of information. I have no interest in how you obtain information with which you use to better yourself.

In other news, please refrain from calling me "BRO" but my advice to post hands/add thoughts to threads still holds. It is how I bent the learning curve to my favor and it is the easiest way for you to do it.

Ignore my advice at your own peril.
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10-22-2009 , 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras345
Thanks Starzz and Sejje.

I have played millions and millions of poker hands, so I understand hot and cold. I can tell you that this was neither hot nor cold, but just normal. I track percentage of top pair hits, 2 pair hits, set hits, draw hits and all-in EV expected value. Everything was right in line here. I understand what the cold runs do to your win rates – particularly the bad beat runs. They drop it way more that the hot runs inflate it. I also can look on sharkscope leader board and see that the highest sustainable win rates are about 20 - 22%, with as you state 10% being shark, 15% being royalty. So there is no bubble to burst here.

My point or question, was can I make any inferences yet? Do losing players have runs this good? And I can still be a loser? How frequently do long-term 15% players have 100 tourney runs of 30% ROI? Is it rare, so albeit unsustainable, it is a solid indication that I am a winning player? That I am likely to be 10+% long term players? That I am likely to be 15%+ long term?

In a way, I guess you answered my question. My target is 500 tourneys and 15%.

I have full time job, so it will take me some time, but I can hit that mark by end of year. I will keep you posted.
You're welcome. With all due respect, sir, I find it extremely hard to believe you have played "millions and millions of hands" given that it took you over a month to get not even 100 of these heads-ups tournaments under your belt.

"Millions and millions." That would be 4 million at least, if you want to be exact about it. If you 4-tabled at 60 hands per hour on each table for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, it would take you EIGHT YEARS to have played "millions and millions" of hands. 2-tabling is 16 years, 1-tabling is 32 years. So I don't know your experience if it was brick and mortar (25 Hph), home game (25Hph), or online (60Hphpt), but it would have to have been online and were talking like heavy duty full time-ish multitabling since the early days when Chris Moneymaker was playing sattelites from his home computer.

My sixth sense is you are not kidding or levelling this post. You actually said that your run of over 30% ROI over a relatively insignficant sample size was "neither hot nor cold." You ran as HOT as HELL. If you weren't a good poker player your ROI would have still been positive but just not as high. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are a superstar poker savant (I'm not being sarcastic, because you very well might be). Your run is hot even for a savant, sir.

I'd be interested in knowing your username and poker site so we can follow your progress.
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10-22-2009 , 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starrazz
At first I thought you were leveling him but taking another look at that board, it seems the villain was calling to prevent what he thought was a steal attempt at his half of the chop (playing the board). He might have thought a bet there is either really strong (like what hero had) or a bluff, and more likely the latter, and decided to look hero up at least for the info.

So Sejje, post a couple of these worse calls you get all the time LOL.
Sometimes people beat you into the pot when you have a hand that could possibly have decent equity versus a few hands, but when you consider the possibility of their entire range it can become apparent how badly you are probably beat. Versus an opponent who ch/r a lot I would check behind on that flop the vast % of the time.

FWIW the best forum on 2+2 is the SSNL forum and I highly recommend reading through their stickies. It will improve your game dramatically; although it refers to cash games, but a lot of the wisdom can be translated into HUSNG's. Just don't overestimate your fold equity and get it all in with FD's all the time.
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10-22-2009 , 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sejje
Why do you care about sandeep's stats?

Further, why do you care enough to call him out for what is probably a true personality flaw on a public forum? Are you trying to embarrass him? What's your angle?
I agree with sejje. There is a fine line between calling out bull**** and making a personal attack. Former is OK. Latter is not.
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10-22-2009 , 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras345
So you are saying you've played 1000s of tournies and never seen a 100 tourney line like this? Doesn't that mean the exact opposite, it can't be ALL luck, or you would have had the same line, that there is some skill there?

PS. Before starting these up 30 days ago, i had 122 $20 over the course of 3 years. Had 74% win percentage.
[ ] 74% win percentage over 122 games at the $20 stake (this works out to a 41% ROI assuming $21 entry fee for $40 prize)

[X] Liar Liar Pants On Fire

It took you 3 years to do 122 headsup tournaments? Even if you played only the fishiest of the fish with super-ultra-extreme opponent selection (which one tournament every 9 days would qualify as), you STILL couldn't possibly get this win rate unless you're talking NBI tourneys then all bets are off.

Yep, you earned it.
1, 2, 3...GTFO.
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10-22-2009 , 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras345
Thanks guys, I guess I should have asked for one more thing:

If you have done it, do you mind telling your long-term ROI also.
You, sir, are an idiot.
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10-22-2009 , 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starrazz
You packed a lot of wise commentary in a short post. I do appreciate it. I understand your point about making it 60 or 75 instead of auto-90. I do mix it up and make it 60 with some hands, I just happened to pot it with the medium king. I haven't made it 75 before, I will consider that as well.
I find it critical to use the whole range (2bb - 5bb) in the early blind levels to determine if villian will fold a higher% to one raise vs the other. Some get scared of min raise and fold more than to 4bb, while other will dump to the 4bb every time, but never to the 2bb cause of pot odds. Then by the time it counts in the mid levels, you can play optimal against that opponent based on what you want him to do. Many villains won't change this regardless of what hand you show down. You just pound them with the most ev play vs thier pre-determined style.

But hopefully he is an observant villain. He might not just react to the raise amount, but wait to see what hands you show and then pair strength or weakness to the raise value. By mid tourney, he thinks you are giving away information based on raise size. Of course, the good hero also remembers what strength he showed per raise amount. If you showed a big hand on a 2bb raise, and a weak one with a 4bb raise and the villain catches on, you are GOLD. You switch it for the second half, raising 4bb with strength and 2bb with weakness and the villain calls you all ur big hands (for big raises) and folds to all your weak hands with minimum risk.
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10-22-2009 , 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras345
Yes, I have done the math, and there are tables posted in this forum that are accurate. But real life corroboration is always useful and insightful. This is particularly true when FT has been accused of being much more streaky than normal random. Not sure why every one in this forum has to attack, be negative and a hater.

I’m just looking for some guys that have shared similar short-term success, in hopes to under stand where they are now in their long-term profitability in this format of poker, since I am new to it.

If any of you who have shared a similar line are out there and want to provide me with such info, it would be much appreciated.
OMG you are hitting all my peeves, Mr. Pythagoras. I have read thru all the posts and havent seen one hateful post yet. That's first of all. Second of all, you did NOT just open up the door to questioning whether FT is random.

[ ] FT is "much more streaky than normal random"

[ ] The earth is flat.

[X ] Water is wet.

[ X ] Accusations of FT lacking randomness provide cover for people's self-delusions of grandeur
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10-22-2009 , 07:14 PM
anyone wana 4 man on full tilt for the next 45 minutes?..I've had 2 beers, feelin a tiny buzz but I'm playing ****in outstanding and am in the best mood of my life awaiting the yankees to dominate there way into the world series.

Any stakes, who cares.
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10-22-2009 , 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras345
I find it critical to use the whole range (2bb - 5bb) in the early blind levels to determine if villian will fold a higher% to one raise vs the other. Some get scared of min raise and fold more than to 4bb, while other will dump to the 4bb every time, but never to the 2bb cause of pot odds. Then by the time it counts in the mid levels, you can play optimal against that opponent based on what you want him to do. Many villains won't change this regardless of what hand you show down. You just pound them with the most ev play vs thier pre-determined style.

But hopefully he is an observant villain. He might not just react to the raise amount, but wait to see what hands you show and then pair strength or weakness to the raise value. By mid tourney, he thinks you are giving away information based on raise size. Of course, the good hero also remembers what strength he showed per raise amount. If you showed a big hand on a 2bb raise, and a weak one with a 4bb raise and the villain catches on, you are GOLD. You switch it for the second half, raising 4bb with strength and 2bb with weakness and the villain calls you all ur big hands (for big raises) and folds to all your weak hands with minimum risk.
It would take so much history for this to occur that I doubt your theory has much merit.
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10-22-2009 , 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starrazz
[ ] 74% win percentage over 122 games at the $20 stake (this works out to a 41% ROI assuming $21 entry fee for $40 prize)

[X] Liar Liar Pants On Fire

It took you 3 years to do 122 headsup tournaments? Even if you played only the fishiest of the fish with super-ultra-extreme opponent selection (which one tournament every 9 days would qualify as), you STILL couldn't possibly get this win rate unless you're talking NBI tourneys then all bets are off.
.
I honestly never even knew this was good until this week. I play normal tourneys. Read my earlier post. I have been cash game player for 10 years. I would play some HU tourneys as a break. Played those $20 over 3 years. Knew I was winning, but didn’t know my rate was considered good or anything. I didn’t even really track them in PT compared to the way I track cash games.

Last month I played $50 for a day, first time I play HU in months, if not a year. I went 8 - 2. Decided to keep playing. Played 100, ran at 30% ROI 68-32, and $65 hour. My cash game hourly is only $35, so I think, hey maybe I onto something here. Let me do some research. Today, I get sharkscope subscription, I check out this forum and realize, I am doing pretty good. Clearly, not sustainable, clearly small sample size, but even so, pretty good.

Based on comments on this forum, I am as intrigued as you. Can I be really good at these? Can I be on that sick of a run? Could I have been grinding cash for 10 years and missed my calling? All I can do is stay in touch, run it up to 500 and see where I am.
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10-22-2009 , 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pulaski
oh hai der forgetting how to win.

The same thing happened to me man.. sometimes FTP will be out to end you it seems. I needed a change of scenery, I moved all my money to pokerstars.

If I hadn't of done that I would have been broke 4 months ago..

And if u really wana get back on the right pace, move ur cash to PS, play regular speed 10 minute blind increases. Before you tell yourself youd rather drink lead then play 10 minute blinds just think of it this way..you have 10 minutes at each level, thats 10 minutes of hands, 10 minutes of decisions without the rush, and 10 minutes more of improvement.. works wonders bro
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10-22-2009 , 07:22 PM
I'd go crazy with 10 minute blinds...
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10-22-2009 , 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Royle Bluntson
anyone wana 4 man on full tilt for the next 45 minutes?..I've had 2 beers, feelin a tiny buzz but I'm playing ****in outstanding and am in the best mood of my life awaiting the yankees to dominate there way into the world series.

Any stakes, who cares.
i'd be down...but i'm in a 10 dollar 4 man atm.
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10-22-2009 , 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11t
It would take so much history for this to occur that I doubt your theory has much merit.
The exact opposite is true. I find this happening is a very short period of time (1 - 2 tournies) as the villian tries to use the small pieces of info you give him to his advantage.

I think over time, with large history, he would figure out that you are more random than he first thought and start playing optimal again. I have not played more than 7 tournies with one villian, so I am guessing on the long-term.

Last edited by pythagoras345; 10-22-2009 at 07:37 PM.
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10-22-2009 , 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starrazz
OMG you are hitting all my peeves, Mr. Pythagoras. I have read thru all the posts and havent seen one hateful post yet. That's first of all. Second of all, you did NOT just open up the door to questioning whether FT is random.

[ ] FT is "much more streaky than normal random"

[ ] The earth is flat.

[X ] Water is wet.

[ X ] Accusations of FT lacking randomness provide cover for people's self-delusions of grandeur
Again I am misunderstood. I believe that FT is equal in the long run. But it uses a computer random generator. By definition a computer random generator can not be perfectly random. So I was just asking for real-life experiences that either matched or did not match the mathematics that is based on pure randomness of every event. (Which is different from long-term equality)
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10-22-2009 , 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras345
The exact opposite is true. I find this happening is a very short period of time (1 - 2 tournies) as the villian tries to use the small pieces of info you give him to his advantage.

I think over time, with large history, he would figure out that you are more random than he first thought and start playing optimal again. I have not played more than 7 tournies with one villian, so I am guessing on the long-term.
what i am saying is that the majority of players don't pick up on these things and a player would need you to do something several times to infer a pattern and then you would need a period of time to ensure that he has seen said pattern and to exploit it.

Setting people up takes time, and history, and it will work once versus a good player and probably cost you $$ in actually setting it up.
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