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Help with how I should play my range. Help with how I should play my range.

12-30-2016 , 11:12 AM
Trying to break down how I should be playing my ranges in non-specific spots and this is the first hand I'm working on, obv this is all new to me so some help would be greatly appreciated.

25BB ef.

Vrs a min open I'm calling with 42% 522 combos:

A6o-A2o,KTo-K3o,QJo-Q5o,JTo-J6o,T9o-T6o,98o-96o,87o-86o,76o,K9s-K2s,QTs-Q2s,JTs-J5s,T9s-T5s,98s-95s,87s-84s,76s-74s,65s-63s,54s-53s,43s

Flop 8c 8s 5c


Versus a 1/2 pot cbet we need to defend 66% of our range (344 combos), and I wondering how I could categorise the specific holding into my given ranges for c/r etc.
Assuming Villain opens 80/90% and cbets near 100%

Donk range
Value
Bluff

c/r range
V
B

c/c range
V
Floats


I've managed to narrow my range down to 325 combos, slightly below the 66%, but I think reasonable:



A5o,K8o,K5o,QJo-QTo,Q8o,Q6o-Q5o,J8o,J6o,T8o,T6o,98o-96o,87o-86o,76o,K8s,K5s,Q8s,Q5s,J8s,J5s,T8s,T5s,98s-95s,87s-84s,76s-74s,65s-64s,54s-53s,Kc9c,Ks9s,Kc7c,Ks7s,Kc6c,Ks6s,Kc4c,Ks4s,Kc3c,K s3s,Kc2c,Ks2s,QcTc,QsTs,Qc9c,Qs9s,Qc7c,Qs7s,Qc6c,Q s6s,Qc4c,Qs4s,Qc3c,Qs3s,Qc2c,Qs2s,JcTc,JsTs,Jc9c,J s9s,Jc7c,Js7s,Jc6c,Js6s,KcTh,KcTd,KcTs,JcTh,JcTd,J cTs,Tc9c,Ts9s,Tc7c,Ts7s,Tc6c,Ts6s,Kc9h,Kc9d,Kc9s,Q c9h,Qc9d,Qc9s,Jc9h,Jc9d,Jc9s,Tc9h,Tc9d,Tc9s,Kc7h,K c7d,Kc7s,Qc7h,Qc7d,Qc7s,Jc7h,Jc7d,Jc7s,Tc7h,Tc7d,T c7s,Ac6h,Ac6d,Ac6s,Kc6h,Kc6d,Kc6s,6c3c,6s3s,Ac4h,A c4d,Ac4s,Kc4h,Kc4d,Kc4s,4c3c,4s3s,Ac3h,Ac3d,Ac3s,K c3h,Kc3d,Kc3s,Ac2h,Ac2d,Ac2s
Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-04-2017 , 03:33 AM
What stake is this at?

And 25BB ef stack, I assume this is a hyper turbo?
Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-04-2017 , 04:49 AM
what do you do with hands like K2o, T2s-T4s, basically with hands that is not in that range?
Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-04-2017 , 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty_Mcduff

A6o-A2o,KTo-K3o,QJo-Q5o,JTo-J6o,T9o-T6o,98o-96o,87o-86o,76o,K9s-K2s,QTs-Q2s,JTs-J5s,T9s-T5s,98s-95s,87s-84s,76s-74s,65s-63s,54s-53s,43s
Seems you flat too tight, and likely 3b too wide as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty_Mcduff
Versus a 1/2 pot cbet we need to defend 66% of our range (344 combos)
No, you don't. This number is completely false and not based on GTO, just based on an incorrect interpretation. Depending on your starting range, GTO defends here around 50-57% of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty_Mcduff
Donk range
Value
Bluff
Don't donk. Also, when you donk it doesn't count towards defending vs a cbet (instead it removes combos that can defend). Donking flops is bad in most cases, and is particularly terrible on this board texture.
Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-04-2017 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTalkBluff
What stake is this at?

And 25BB ef stack, I assume this is a hyper turbo?
3.50$ and yes a hyper.

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Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-04-2017 , 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by none888
what do you do with hands like K2o, T2s-T4s, basically with hands that is not in that range?
I'm using Hokie Greg's ranges from an old video pack, I realise they're not perfect and possibly dated, but it gives me something to work with.

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Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-04-2017 , 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeeyay
No, you don't. This number is completely false and not based on GTO, just based on an incorrect interpretation. Depending on your starting range, GTO defends here around 50-57% of the time.
Could you explain how you get the 50-57% figure, as this was the whole point of the exercise?

Obviously I've got it completely wrong as you mention your range effects how often you defend. My understanding was that you needed to defend with a frequency that prevented V auto-profiting.



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Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-04-2017 , 06:49 PM
his indifference is:
EV_check=cf_check*4BB=F*4BB-R*2BB+C*(cf_bet*8BB-2BB)
where cf is the capture factor, the fraction of the pot which villain wins when being called or when he checks back. if you assume both entities to be zero you indeed get C+R=2/3, but very often that is an oversimplification.
Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-04-2017 , 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeeyay
Seems you flat too tight
Do you flat 54o and Q2o vs the population? These hands are very borderline right?
Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-04-2017 , 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty_Mcduff
Could you explain how you get the 50-57% figure, as this was the whole point of the exercise?
Using GTO models
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty_Mcduff
Obviously I've got it completely wrong as you mention your range effects how often you defend. My understanding was that you needed to defend with a frequency that prevented V auto-profiting.
Yes you have it completely wrong. If you're looking to play balanced (ie near GTO) you need to prevent villain from being more profitable betting than checking. This involves a combination of x/r and x/call (since you need to make pure air indifferent, as well as semi-bluffs and thin-value). The number you gave is the amount required to defend to make villain indifferent betting flop and open folding turn if called, compared to open-folding flop--not at all relevant to real play.

It depends on range because in the end, what you're really trying to to is defend all hands that are more profitably defended than folded. On some textures, villain's range advantage is such that they can bet all their air profitably and that's life--you end up folding >50% sometimes even when balanced. It also depens on range because of the amount of x/r compared to x/c can change x/f frequency as well, and x/r frequency depends strongly on range v range stuff (in GTO play).

Really you should just try to defend hands that are profitable vs villain's betting range, and not worry much past that. If they bet too many bluffs, you should defend very wide. If they bet too few bluffs you should not defend much. If they happen to cbet with a near-GTO strategy then many hands will be indifferent between defending and folding--which means the EV is the same, so you won't change your strategy's EV picking either one (even 100% of time). So just focus on adapting to your villain and trying to figure out what types of hands defend well in what situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obbudsman
Do you flat 54o and Q2o vs the population? These hands are very borderline right?
Yes and yes.
Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-05-2017 , 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeeyay
Using GTO models


Yes you have it completely wrong. If you're looking to play balanced (ie near GTO) you need to prevent villain from being more profitable betting than checking. This involves a combination of x/r and x/call (since you need to make pure air indifferent, as well as semi-bluffs and thin-value). The number you gave is the amount required to defend to make villain indifferent betting flop and open folding turn if called, compared to open-folding flop--not at all relevant to real play.

It depends on range because in the end, what you're really trying to to is defend all hands that are more profitably defended than folded. On some textures, villain's range advantage is such that they can bet all their air profitably and that's life--you end up folding >50% sometimes even when balanced. It also depens on range because of the amount of x/r compared to x/c can change x/f frequency as well, and x/r frequency depends strongly on range v range stuff (in GTO play).

Really you should just try to defend hands that are profitable vs villain's betting range, and not worry much past that. If they bet too many bluffs, you should defend very wide. If they bet too few bluffs you should not defend much. If they happen to cbet with a near-GTO strategy then many hands will be indifferent between defending and folding--which means the EV is the same, so you won't change your strategy's EV picking either one (even 100% of time). So just focus on adapting to your villain and trying to figure out what types of hands defend well in what situations.



Yes and yes.
Wow, thank you.
Help with how I should play my range. Quote
01-11-2017 , 10:01 AM
Q2o is garbage facing a min-raise and I'm pretty much a station.
Help with how I should play my range. Quote

      
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