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hero has a top pair in a check raised non AI pot hero has a top pair in a check raised non AI pot

05-10-2013 , 10:56 AM
Poker Stars, $29.37 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 2 Players

6th hand in the tournament, FvCB 100 (2/2), BB VPIP 100
SB: 550 (27.5 bb)
Hero (BB): 450 (22.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T Q
SB raises to 40, Hero calls 20

Flop: (80) 6 J Q (2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets 40, Hero raises to 100, SB calls 60

Turn: (280) J (2 players)
Hero checks, SB checks

River: (280) 5 (2 players)
Hero?

I also would like to know about the turn check. Is it okey to check or is it horrible-horrible?
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05-10-2013 , 11:16 AM
Imo the check ott is pretty bad. You're missing a lot of value from worse Qx, straight draws, sometimes maybe even 6x.
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05-10-2013 , 01:14 PM
I actually think the check on the turn is fine. We can never really fold here, so need to think about optimal value. If we bet, we're essentially pot committed, so draw and air can't really raise and it's a tough call. It's also perfectly conceivable that a turn bet scares off a pocket pair or a 6. On the other hand, if villain has air or a draw it's very easy for him to rep a jack when checked to and we can call or jam over the top very easily.

Once it's checked back and we get to the river, seems like an easy open jam and would expect a hero call more often than on turn.

Last edited by I_LI_Jl; 05-10-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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05-10-2013 , 10:49 PM
i check turn. now prob bet 150ish.would suck if He goes over the top.
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05-11-2013 , 03:57 AM
Bet the turn. People don't bluff raise there as often as you think.
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05-11-2013 , 04:35 AM
Why raise the flop?

You think he's he's calling worse when you raise? Better Qx are gonna jam over; 6x fold; Jx either flat/fold and we lose value on brick turns when we can get at least one more street of value when we x/c.

Turn, checking is absolutely fine and checking river to induce is also fine. We can't bet turn or river, for value in most cases because he can essentially turn worse Qx, random pocket pairs into a bluff + also have value shoves meaning we have to fold the better hand. If we take a passive turn/river line, we can induce bluffs and get value from worse.
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05-11-2013 , 04:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mela
Bet the turn. People don't bluff raise there as often as you think.
Clearly you have results to back up your thoughts; so I'm not discrediting what you say but imo I think they bluff raise more than you think. Think about the range of hands villian calls a x/r with? More jx as opposed to Qx.

Looking from villains view, you think hero x/r middle pair? Doubtful as we're turning our Jx into a bluff on the flop when we have good equity to just flat. Villain is just gonna shove in most cases with Qx, meaning we call with Jx and be crushed.

When the turn is a Jack, it's quite a bad card considering villains his calling range on the flop. I think villain is likely flatting more value hands (/Jx/66/Qx+random pocket pairs).

By betting the turn we fold out exactly everything we beat and get jammed on by bluffs/value hands all of which we have to fold. If villain did call a x/r with worse Qx/6x or random pocket pairs; we get at least a river bluff sometimes as opposed to nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyriver
Imo the check ott is pretty bad. You're missing a lot of value from worse Qx, straight draws, sometimes maybe even 6x.
As stated above; it makes no sense betting the turn when you think about it and villains calling range hands.

Do you honestly believe most Qx/straight draws/6x flat a x/r? Flatting ranges are usually quite strong and "some" Qx. They will likely shove as opposed to flat.

Last edited by ramdeebam; 05-11-2013 at 05:00 AM.
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05-11-2013 , 06:06 AM
I appreciate all the answers - they have been super helpful - ty ty
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05-11-2013 , 01:41 PM
There's a ton of stuff that he's going to check back most of the time on the turn like A high, KT, K9,T9, etc so there's no point in checking this; you're basically just avoiding a tough decision if he shoves over.
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05-11-2013 , 08:48 PM
You need to be jamming the turn when he flats your C/R.
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05-12-2013 , 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramdeebam
Clearly you have results to back up your thoughts; so I'm not discrediting what you say but imo I think they bluff raise more than you think. Think about the range of hands villian calls a x/r with? More jx as opposed to Qx.

Looking from villains view, you think hero x/r middle pair? Doubtful as we're turning our Jx into a bluff on the flop when we have good equity to just flat. Villain is just gonna shove in most cases with Qx, meaning we call with Jx and be crushed.

When the turn is a Jack, it's quite a bad card considering villains his calling range on the flop. I think villain is likely flatting more value hands (/Jx/66/Qx+random pocket pairs).

By betting the turn we fold out exactly everything we beat and get jammed on by bluffs/value hands all of which we have to fold. If villain did call a x/r with worse Qx/6x or random pocket pairs; we get at least a river bluff sometimes as opposed to nothing.



As stated above; it makes no sense betting the turn when you think about it and villains calling range hands.

Do you honestly believe most Qx/straight draws/6x flat a x/r? Flatting ranges are usually quite strong and "some" Qx. They will likely shove as opposed to flat.
I'm a bit too tired now to post my usual tl; dr reply, but there seems to be some contradiction in your logic. For one thing, if their flat b/c range is strong like you said, how can they bluff raise often on the turn?
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05-12-2013 , 11:32 AM
equilab is nuts.
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05-13-2013 , 05:23 AM
i think the flop c/r size could be better. you have 310 eff stack in a 280 pot on the turn, which is suboptimal. depending on villains tendencies either make it a little smaller(like 90 to induce/get villain to spazz), or make it a little bigger like 115 to get a better PSR on the turn (295 to 310). i personally think against unknown, bigger is better, don't think is calling range is gonna change much if we c/r close to 3x here.
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