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Constructing 3bet ranges

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06-27-2013 , 08:35 AM

randomthrow

stranger

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2

Hi,
when moving up (30s in my case) you probably get to play a lot more regs.
I tried to work on my reg game and construct some 3bet ranges.
Here is what I came up with...

[img]http://s24.************/b1fen5e11/V_st_i_ek.png[/img]

The low suited aces is sometimes 3bet and sometimes flat to have some Ax in your defend range.

Here is my question: should I 3bet more hands vs regs? What hands should I start adding to 3bet range?

Also, what range should be non-AI 3bet and what AI 3bet?

Vs random fish, it should be probably weighted more towards value and I should drop a lot of suited Qx, Jx etc ?

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06-27-2013 , 08:49 AM

aenimka

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 221

85s 3bet range? all in why? It all depends who u play with, some regs are tight some loose, u need to adjust ur 3bet range to villian.

Last edited by aenimka; 06-27-2013 at 09:00 AM.

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06-27-2013 , 09:18 AM

ibavly

2010 PSOP Champion

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 24,513

you should usually be 3b bluffing with hands at the bottom of your flatting range/top of your folding range

If those hands are at your border you're playing way too few hands

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06-27-2013 , 01:16 PM

Vinegar2

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 137

This is something I've been thinking about recently. 1. Construct a value range that you will call a shove with based on high wide villain is opening. Against a typical reg opening 70%, that's probably 77+ AQo+ AJs+. 2. Construct a bluff range that you will fold to a shove.

Last edited by Vinegar2; 06-27-2013 at 01:29 PM.

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06-27-2013 , 01:49 PM

Vinegar2

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 137

This is something I've been thinking about recently. When the 3bet is NAI:
1. Construct a value range that you will call a shove with based on high wide villain is opening. Against a typical reg opening 70%, that's probably 77+ AQo+ AJs+ (6.3%).
2. Construct a bluff range that you will fold to a shove. My value/bluff ratio is something like 40/60. So for a 6.3% value range I'd be adding 9.5% bluffs, 3betting a total of ~16%.
When stacks get short or playing a fish I would forget 3bet bluffing and expand my value range.
Weak Axo hands are never in my value or bluff 3bet ranges.
I'd be interested to know what others think.

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06-27-2013 , 05:21 PM

genher

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,931

construct ranges that work vs. the opponent you are playing at the time otherwise it's not very useful

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06-28-2013 , 08:45 AM

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,060

Yeah having a default range against "regs" is pointless, learn how to adjust to different player types.. Also what ibavly said is generally true, so likely you need to call more hands in the BB, especially to smaller opens (like 2, 2.1 instead of 3x).
Also most of the ax hands play better as flat calls in general.

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06-28-2013 , 09:38 AM

stone75

adept

Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 881

just a side note: the way the population tendencies are at the moment at the 30s i would recommend you to add more value hands in your 3-bet nai range (KQ, KJs, KTs, QJs) and maybe get rid of some bluffing hands. Maybe its just variance, but my nai 3-bets are getting called very wide lately.

For the rest I have to agree with the others. You can pick up reads from the first hand on and insta adjust

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06-28-2013 , 09:40 AM

Vinegar2

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 137

Stone - if you 3 bet a hand like KQ for value are you calling a 4 bet shove with it?

Last edited by Vinegar2; 06-28-2013 at 09:46 AM.

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06-28-2013 , 01:07 PM

#10

kvnd

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibavly

you should usually be 3b bluffing with hands at the bottom of your flatting range/top of your folding range

If those hands are at your border you're playing way too few hands

So does this mean you should flat with premium hands and things like KQ and such? flatting with AA etc? Should you three bet mid-low pocket pairs or flat with them?

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06-28-2013 , 01:16 PM

#11

Munchking

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 315

he meant 3bet bluffs
mid-low pocket pair do better in 3bet shoves, than NAI
AA-QQ/KQ do great in 3bets NAI

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06-28-2013 , 05:14 PM

#12

genher

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,931

Quote:

Originally Posted by stone75

I was going to say that too. Under $60 put more value hands in there. Not much Fold Equity in 3B NAI anymore.
(probably because they see see good players 3B NAI tons of garbage!?)

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06-28-2013 , 05:39 PM

#13

Munchking

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 315

+1, also felt that there isn't as much fold equity for NAI 3bets. at least, preflop; postflop depending on the villain.
there's the occasional villain with at least 60% fold to 3bet NAI; but they're getting rare.

wonder, if t90 sizing should be replaced for t100(at least, deeper)

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06-28-2013 , 07:40 PM

#14

iL1keTurtles

adept

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,070

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMGClayDol

It's not pointless at all, infact you need 'default' ranges for all spots for readless play.

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06-28-2013 , 07:41 PM

#15

iL1keTurtles

adept

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,070

btw op how deep are you talking?

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06-28-2013 , 07:54 PM

#16

daviid

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,639

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinegar2

Stone - if you 3 bet a hand like KQ for value are you calling a 4 bet shove with it?

that depends on stacksizes, villains aggression/opening range/4b range etc.
if villain opens to 40 with 1.5k stacks from sb in the first hand, you make it 100 and he jams, its an obv fold. if that happens with 20bb eff at 25/50 when villain has been opening 95% hands from the btn its almost always a 3b/call.
also average "regs" at 30s dont nearly 4b (bluff) as often as they should so u dont really have to worry about getting shoved on too often pre. if they do, flat some more and/or 3b/c wider for value depending on their actual ranges.

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06-28-2013 , 08:52 PM

#17

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,060

Quote:

Originally Posted by iL1keTurtles

It's not pointless at all, infact you need 'default' ranges for all spots for readless play.

Pointless is obviously the wrong word but the way op worded his post implies he's gonna rely on the default range way more than he should.

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06-29-2013 , 05:37 AM

#18

AggroSquid

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 321

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinegar2

Stone - if you 3 bet a hand like KQ for value are you calling a 4 bet shove with it?

lose less chips when calling 4bs with hands like KQ and KJ than folding and not realising equity you have.

Ie Ev of KQ against 4bs range is higher that the -90 chips we lose when we fold our NAI 3b.

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06-29-2013 , 05:38 AM

#19

AggroSquid

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 321

obviously i'm suggesting in a hyper turbo

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07-01-2013 , 05:17 AM

#20

Emus

adept

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 839

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munchking

If using t90;
you require pf 53.8% fold% to 3b ATC
you fire twice 67.8% of pot to get all-in @ 25 deep
you fire twice 55.4% of pot to get all-in @ 20 deep

If using t100;
you require pf 57.1% fold% to 3b ATC
you fire twice 61.8% of pot to get all-in @ 25 deep
you fire twice 50% of pot to get all-in @ 20 deep

My gut tells me that 20+, differences are that close that it likely has less impact upon our 3bet strategy then we actually think readless compared to the impact of constructing a good range while using that range for both sizes.

I prefer t90 readless.

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