I agree with this more than anything else on here. Sizing on river is really EH and leans towards value( vs a shove= bluff, more often than not), the fact that you mentioned he wasn't 3 barreling much AND he gave up on turn a bit feels more like this is a fold. I see his range being Fullhouses/flushes with random straights and of course random 3's trying to fold you off of a chop

Is he bluffing some of the time here? Of course, but I for one really feel like your line is quite strong and that leans me more towards a fold. I like MJW's advice here as the info you gain is huge, but I for one would fold.

not that i want/expect this to hijack the thread but do u ever lead this turn? if it wasn't a spade are we check/raising then?

i think if i check/call this flop it's to let him barrel mostly, so i dont think i have a turn checkraising range then (regardless of spade or no spade really), maybe like 5-10% of the time on a non-spade if i feel like it and maybe have a timing/betsizing tell that he's pretty strong as well but def not a lot

raise flop fairly big and commit yourself to the pot

edit: didn't read the full 6 pages so excuse me if this has been said and discussed before

ehm, ok cool, thx buddy

I shake my head in disbelief every day on 2p2. First because of the **** I read, then because of myself because I keep reading and replying daily.

-villain only barrels few turns with this board texture
-he'll call a flop c/r fairly wide and you can much easier stack off against Ax type hands because he could pot control those hands on the turn if you only flat on the flop and check to him on the turn

borg you have upset everyone

^lol

but c/r flop isnt bad or something in a vacuum is it?

i think the problem with Borg's post is this

any opponent with half a brain will realize you're committing yourself if you size your bet big enough like Borg recommends

lol
i think checkraising big with these stacksizes with any hand is fairly stupid on this boardtexture

ok well havent put much thought into c/r sizing yet nor have i paid much attention to stack sizes up until now...
i hereby take the part where i say to c/r big back but i still think that c/raising flop is best

will villain barrel KsX on turn often?

it's called balancing your c/c range... it's not that hard to explain really: if we always checkraise 3x here then why would it stop villain from barreling away since our range is capped to Ax? ever thought about that?
if you didnt even bother to read at least SOME of the replies before you then i dont see what you do in this thread anyway

your c/c range can still be balanced if you don't c/c trips 100%

WHO EVER SAID THAT I C/C TRIPS HERE 100% OF THE TIME GOD YOU'RE SO TILTING GO BACK RAPE SOME FISH OR SOMETHING WTFFFFFFFFFFFFF

c/r is baaaaaaad, it doesn't even make sense. Considering the stack sizes, "raising to commit yourself" translates to "shoveling money into the pot when behind" and "making it easy for villain to play perfect".

can we get back to the subject now?

checkraise flop isn't bad, it's just that always checkraising or check/calling trips here is super easy to play against for villain if he's a good player and i happen to c/c this time and therefor i also have to c/c turn, it's not that hard really, only thing to discuss here is river imo

What hands are we c/calling on this board?

3x, Ax, Kx, pp, and sometimes/often flushdraws?

i'm not trying to piss you off here or anything but i never said you c/c 100%


i advocate c/raising, not "raising to commit yourself" so therefore none of the points you mentioned are valid
also spamz0r just made very clear he doesn't c/c 100% so obv there's merit to c/raising

based it off this. Either way, I still think discussing c/r'ing this board is unnecessary.. we can do that in a $33 thread. Nothing personal, I just enjoy reading everyone's stance on the river decision. Deciding which line is best to take on the flop is not needed; I'm pretty sure spamz0r was aware of all of his/her options.

This kind of hand melts my brain. I probably call in game. Looking at it now, I would lean just a little towards fold given the river totally screws our equity. Also the read that villain is unlikely to barrel w/o equity on turn. So what's his range? That's already been discussed in depth, but I think villain should/would be just a little concerned about a flush or trips on this riv, and it seems unlikely that he would barrel much that we beat on riv.

Overall though I can see the argument that he could barrel Ax to get rid of a chop or AK, etc...I just think that's a much smaller % than the chance he has a monster.

spamz knows that c/r is an option on flop, but he's only asking about river play if its a call or fold.

i'm not sure if this is 100% correct by the reads you provided, but it seems like you having been calling down kinda light so after 2 or 3 games, villain should have adjusted and should be betting a wide-ish range here on the river, but i don't think he bets enough Kx on the river to be a profitable value bet, but able to turn Kx into a bluff on the river after you c/c turn as Kx only beats a small percentage of your c/c flop and c/c turn range. thats why i was wondering do you think he barrels turn w/ naked Ks? if he always checks Ks back on the turn, then he's firing a strong range on turn which makes river a fold.

not sure if this is 100% correct or whatever, but i hope it provides some help.

also sorry if this has been discussed already, didn't have much time to read through this so if it has, don't mind my post.

btw spamz what's your value range for c/r'ing turn, as you say doing it w naked 3x is turning our hand into a bluff

i dont have a checkraising range here on turn after flatting flop and reasons for this are somewhat discussed in this thread already