So this is the 4th time I limp overall, and the second time in this level. Previously he just checked.

Should I play it otherwise?

Full Tilt Poker $20 + $1 Heads Up No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (BTN/SB): t1415 28.30 BBs
BB: t1585 31.70 BBs

Pre Flop: (t75) Hero is BTN/SB with 3 3
Hero calls t25, BB raises to t150, Hero raises to t1415 all in, BB calls t1265

Flop: (t2830) 3 T 5

Turn: (t2830) 8

River: (t2830) 2

limp/jamming small pp's is pretty bad as a standard line imo
your reads could also be better here given it's already 25/50

why? even if we're a bit shallower?

everyone does this and idk why tbh
it can range from slightly ev+ under specific circumstances to around ev0 but not max ev for sure to really bad vs a lot of opponents

i think the read that he had previously been passive and checked vs limps makes this a bit wild.i think for like 15-20bb you could do this as a standard line and it be +EV but 30 is just too deep vs a passive villain.

i think the normal reasoning is that, if we do get to limp/shove, its great b/c we have a lot of fold equity and pretty good real equity vs his calling range. and if villain checks behind thats fine too since the pp will play better w/ larger SPR.

I think it is fine if he raises a decent %age.

wrong imo
40% equity or something is awesome indeed
so you're basically setmining against yourself and if you don't hit and villain leads we fold or if he c/c's flop we have a hand that has 2 outs to improve to something strong?

If he checked the first time why in god would you jam?

i think ppl make this play a lot to remove the difficulties of playing this hand psot flop with semi awkward stacks.not saying that's why i'd do it but i think that's a big factor for a lot f ppl along with the reasons yaqh posted.

also i think ppl tend to raise your first few limps if you've been predominantly raising/folding on the btn purely because they feel your range is weak.maybe not the case here like the fifth time you've limped vs passive opponent but generally contributes to ppl making this play

we need reads on villain, since you're 25/50 already you must atleast have vpip/pfr stats or something! Would you classify villain as weak tight, loose passive, LAG, TAG?

First, is there anything wrong limp/shoving PPs? I've read and seen videos where people says it's a good idea to limp/shove 22-66 when 20-40 bbs deep.

Also, isn't there a lot of hands he'll raise with here, that's gonna fold to a shove?

He's weak/tight.

i dont get why - when you decide to limp - your SPR or something would make you think this would be a lot easier to play tbh
at least when you (min)raise pre you have a decent amount of fold equity to already pick up the pot right there (not to mention the fact that we can cbet and will take down the pot a reasonable amount on flop as well, a pot of 4bb's instead of 2bb's)

edit: also if you limp and villain never bets or raises it's hard to get stacks in if you flop a set with these stacksizes whereas if you raise pre and he calls it's not that hard to bet/bet/jam without even smashing potbutton

as a general sort of rule of thumb I usually do this when the pot represents 10% of the effective stack with pretty much any pp/Ax or stuff in general that thoac mentioned about hands you do it with to make the play easier, is that a leak?

nvrm: I dont limp much, I was talking about jamming over someone elses.

yeah i agree about the ease of getting stacks in much easier pre in a raised pot vs a limped pot for sure. i think ppl aren't worried about the implied odds their hand has here with for example 16bb effective stacks and they're more concerned with taking down the dead money in the pot pre which might represent like 4 or 5 bb's

think that is the main reasoning behind it really

i think you're really overestimating your foldequity + equity when called vs a random's range here; if he's passive you're really ****ed, if he's somewhere in between you're still ****ed imo or ev0 at best, if he's aggro i think his callingrange will be too wide (i seen people call J9s, A6o, etc. here, with good reason sometimes) to make up for our only 45% equity; if villain is a reg it's hard to find a balanced range that makes him not having to call of with JTs, he will in general call wide enough though to **** your life up as well, not to mention postflop will be somewhat harder to win pots from whereas he could've just folded preflop

only villains you can try this against imo are regs that punish as good as every limp though idk what % of them would be that

yeah basically agree wth that spammo esp specific to this villain ur ****ed

I think its fine. Even if we don't have reads on villain we can assume that the average villain is raising more hands here than he is willing to call a limp shove with. Since you haven't limped much its probably gonna look especially weak and given that blinds are now 25/50, theres a decent chance villain is just trying to steal a BB. The only thing we are worried about is an overpair since we still have a slight edge vs overcards even if he does call off light. You will also sometimes see really bad opponents call with the few hands we dominate like a3 or a2.

Calling with a hand like JTs only makes sense if villain knows we only limp/shoves here with a small PP (and even then I don't think its +EV). I don't think we should assume that the villain knows we have a small PP. In my experience this is not always the case. Ive seen people limp shove all kinds of hands from AA, A5 to spazz shoves with q4.

I think this play is fine the first time as it will get more respect but I wouldn't repeat it with another small PP.

i think you'd be surprised how often you need like TT+ here or a hand that dominates JTs like AJ/AT/KJ/KT/QJ/QT for not limp/calling off 15-25bb's with it tbh
just to give you a quick idea:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.599% 48.32% 00.28% 542728568 3168690.00 { JTs }
Hand 1: 51.401% 51.12% 00.28% 574205476 3168690.00 { 77-22, A9s-A2s, A9o-A2o }

id minraise vs passive villain and see how it goes from there on rather then limp / shove only reason to limp shove here is if id be really strong and he seems to attackign limps alot but limp/shoving here, vs a passive villain who wont attack ur limps often

with 33

ur like flipping at best

so why would u get it in, knowing he has a strong hand (since he doesnt normally attack ur limps so hes pretty likely to have a good hand when he does ATTACK ur limp) possible higher pocket pairs suitedc that are also 'high' cards like spamzor mentioned with the JTs which u are also a slight dog in, so basically u are gonna go and get all in with a weak pp after he has shown strenght (passive villain attacking ur limp) with at best a flip and pretty much no fold equity (since he has just shown u he has a strong hand)

i might take this line with TT+ and ATo+ because i think this passive villain type does not fold very often after attacking limp and if i think its more likely that he will get it in pre after i limp and he attacks rather then after i bet hes prolly not gonna 3bet (hes passive) but still pretty thin

in general id just not limp/shove vs this villain, i would raise hard and vbet good value hands but with this 33 u are really flipping at best lets assume that he is a passive villain like somewhere stated above (am bit tired sorry) and that he does not attack your limp often / at all but that he solely raises when u limp because he thinks he has a good value hand, im gonna pokerstove it now, and take a range that is pretty damn wide, just to show my point more clearly :

Hand 0: 42.497% 42.08% 00.42% 1003008024 9923022.00 { 33 }
Hand 1: 57.503% 57.09% 00.42% 1360673100 9923022.00 { 55+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

this is what i come up with , with his range basically being a somewhat cash game 6max opening range , ur basically 40/60 and u dont have enough FE imo to make this play and be MAX EV if anything ur just gonna be flipping and 'giving away ur edge' imo

here with the 33 i would just raise it up from the btn go in for a minraise and take it from there

with a hand as ATo+ and 99+
i would also go in for a raise (maybe 3x raise depending on how much attention u feel villain is paying ) and just vbet when u hit / when good boards come, obv with AQ+ and TT+ im snapping a shove

most solid reason to ever limp shove imo is vs someone where u limped alot in early game to get a feel for the game and he seemed to be attacking it alot or if he just lost a big pot and u think he will make a spite raise when u limp (although this is very game flow dependant)

damn that was a long post but i do think i posted my thoughts quite well and hope that some people agree with me / see the merit in it

much love :$


edit: just realised its 20+1 so prolly reg speed, which makes me dislike it even more :P

esp if u think u have a good edge vs this guy, id just raise it up at worst u lose 75 chips more, at best u win 50 just be disciplined, and dont get outta control with this hand dont 'give up ur edge' esp not in a reg speed game

just my 2cents could be way off tho

Sorry I didn`t see this before. Given this read I wouldn`t advise limp shoving in this particular case but I do think limp shoving can be an effective play vs. other opponents. Minraising preflop is way better here.

I don't think it was a good idea. 66+ i say. But all though you would have got it all in on that flob, you should not have jammed. But i would not have made a difference though

So, against a weak/tight villain like this, I have a decent edge against, I shouldn't limp/shove.

But it's still okay doing this against aggressive villains?

Did you read spamz's posts?

"when you (min)raise pre you have a decent amount of fold equity to already pick up the pot right there (not to mention the fact that we can cbet and will take down the pot a reasonable amount on flop as well, a pot of 4bb's instead of 2bb's)"

"only villains you can try this against imo are regs that punish as good as every limp though idk what % of them would be that "

If you want to get your pp in pf, I think you'd make more money by executing the raise-3BAI move (and villain folding) than by limp-shoving (and villain folding) imo.