This whole debate is very similar to the arguments I see in the MP about the MU charged by certain people for packages online. It's missing a very significant piece of the puzzle - the entertainment value.

For me, as an "investor", it's worth it for me to pay a premium to have a piece of somebody in a tournament that I can't play in.

I LOVE the fact that I have a chance to sweat somebody in the Main Event, or another 10k event, or a big WCOOP event, or even the Sunday $500, knowing that if they win I win some money.

It's worth money to me for the entertainment value of checking how they're doing in tournaments.

So an opportunity like this - where I can follow a good player for an entire year has a value to me, and I suspect to others.

Does that mean that the raw numbers - in terms of ROI vs. investment cost - is worthwhile down to the penny? Maybe not. But I don't believe the package as presented goes in the other direction either - I don't feel it's a rip off. Any % that I'm giving Greg is more than made up for by the entertainment factor.

Is it trying to make money off his main event score? Sure is. Is that a bad thing? I don't believe so...

I believe there are two types of investors in the MP - those that do it for pure investment, and those that do it for a combination of investment and entertainment. I am firmly in the latter pool, and as such this appeals to me.

I believe that the people complaining about the structure of this one fall into the former category.

Just a thought / my $0.02...

OT

Lemme chat with my wife, but I'm interested... Gotta get some spousal approval first...

OT, you make a very valid point except the OP didn't answer this way when questioned about the value or reason for how he setup his package. I think he would have gotten a lot less critical feedback if he didn't try to initially frame his package for the "pure investment" people and instead aimed it to people like you, the so-called "entertainment investors".

I do this after every comp I play in (and yes it is me dancing on my knees in the Lotus position after playing an EPT event)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dlCGp8LyRA

If this isn't entertaining I don't know what is.

I have a upcoming package of $15Ks of comps, and I'm selling 50% at 1.22 with an additional entertainment premium of 0.15, making it 1.37 MU in total.

I'll book you for a 10 ball at 1.37 MU Ontario_Tory. Thanks for your investment!

I said I'd pay A premium, not ANY premium... So I'll pass on the 1.37 MU, but thanks for the offer. (If, however, you promise to never film that dance again I might consider something... Thankfully it was filmed using a potato, else I would still be recovering from the strobe light induced seizure... )


OT

I need to know what happens to the money if Greg passes during the year.

You want him to be a calling station all year long?

He covered that here:

I suggest you play your 4 hours a week of cash games on your own dime.

It's obviously a tiny portion of the package , but to your potential investors you are THE tourney guy(although I am sure you are decent at cash). You have to admit it's really not your thing anyway if you are only playing 200 hours a year right? Otherwise you would just crush cash games all year. And if you're only playing 200 hours a year and a portion of it is at 1/2 like you stated then just nix it from the package.

It eliminates all doubt, which is better than the "just trust me or this package isn't for you" disclaimer. You should be able to handle this small amount of cash game action yourself %1000 and BBJ money is all yours

People will invest in you for the chance at a large tourney bink, not at a rare 500BB win at 1/2 or 2/5 that will be chopped up 100 ways.

Interesting idea. A great deal for you, a fun sweat for investors who are fans.

Good Luck.

I appreciate your feedback and interest. And you make a good point. The reason I don't do as you suggest is that I want to always do what's best for my backers. If I'm at the WSOP, for example, I can always play 1-table satellites, and can always play cash. If I decide that the best use of my time is to play in a cash game, then I would be missing an opportunity to play for my backers, if they didn't also own my cash game action. As such, I would either be passing up the more profitable opportunity in the cash game, or I would be passing up the opportunity to work for my backers. I don't want to put myself in that position, so I prefer to keep cash games in the mix.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Lol + 1 to funny.

Hey Greg, I would happily invest if I could but it's a lil outta my range. However it would be half for the entertainment factor explained in prior posts as I think the overall mu involved is too steep for any player to charge again for reasons previously explained

With that said , was just checking out your hendon mob, and beyond the ME win I would still say you have one of the more bad ass hendon mobs I've seen.

You absolutely murdered the heartland poker tour in 2012. 4 ME wins in like 6 months? Very impressive.

Kinda unrelated but thought I'd comment on it since It was first tkme i hadlooked @ ur hendon and I've seen many buts urs is def a good read through lol.

Best of luck this yr sir, I'm feeling a winning yr for u coming up.

Bumped, still about a week to get in. Just final tabled my first event of the year at bestbet Jax MSPT main, if that matters. ;-)

P.S. - not part of the deal, so I'm not saying you can buy into a small profit up front.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Congrats. GL with package.

how can new law be a part of this?

If you're referring to the thing in Nevada, that is not a law, it is a bill, that might become a law. Until it is passed into law, it is not relevant to anything.

If it does become a law, it still has no impact here. Even if I win money in NV, there won't be any paperwork at the time naming co-investors. When I do pay you, there might be paperwork, but that would be at the end of the year, and would not be Nevada-specific. As it stands, there is lots of negative feedback with regard to this pending bill, and Caesars is involved, I believe, in getting them to vote it down or at least amend it to make it clear it wouldn't apply to poker.

Thanks for your interest!

Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Pokerfuse: Poker Staking is Safe in Nevada

http://pokerfuse.com/news/law-and-re...g-safe-nevada/

Hi Greg,

I've been considering investing since I first saw this thread, as I think it would be a decent investment and a fun sweat. In all honesty $1000 is probably more than I can sensibly spare but I do have a couple of questions if you don't mind:

Will you ever sell any other action during the year? I'm sure I recall a thread where you were trying to get backing for the $10k stud 8 (I think) at the WSOP last year, though it could have been the year before.

If the bankroll got a little low, and someone offered to put up another $50k or $100k of shares, would you be "allowed" to take it? Or even if it wasn't low? Just thinking about dilution of shares.

Having written them out, I realise I've basically asked two variations of the same question, but would be interested in the answers.

Thanks

I appreciate your interest and your questions.

What might happen, if there is a really good event who's buyin is too high for the bankroll, I would sell pieces of that event on behalf of the bankroll. Last year I played the 10K NL 2-7 lowball event selling pieces. I sold them using the traditional markup method you so most of the time here on 2+2. But it was really the bankroll selling the action. I sold off something like 70% of the action for something like 7800. That means the bankroll paid the other 2200, but it had 30% of the action. Thus, the markup benefited the bankroll, NOT me personally.

As for the bankroll getting very low, there is no mechanism to introduce new funds other than some sort of deal that was agreed to by all investors. If something like you suggest were happening, the bankroll was low, and an investor were interested in buying in for 50-100K, we would have to come up with terms that all investors agreed to. Or, we would have to continue with the low bankroll, and either start winning or go bust. If the bankroll busts prior to the end of the year, then the deal is finished. At that point, the new investor could be part of a new bankroll, as could previous investors, if they wished to invest further.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Thanks for answers Greg, that all seems fair.

I'd like to invest but it's a bit too rich for me, will be following your year with interest and keeping it in mind in case you run this again next year. All the best at the tables.

If anybody wanted to split a share, maybe shoot me a pm (likewise Greg if you decide you'll sell a half share after all)

If Jamie Gold ever posts an offer like this I will be all over it.

Greg takes 40% of ALL PROFITS? That is ridiculous. Once you include Greg's shares (20% of package?) Greg will be taking home more than half of total overall profits every year this package is profitable. Better players are selling for much less markup than this in probably many of the same tournaments greg will be playing.

Only 100 tourneys, the variability of his buyins (1k-10ks?) and the variability of the field sizes, all increase the overall variance of this package. It's a complete crapshoot whether this would make money or not any given year, and when it does BOOM greg takes 40% of profits immediately.

This is a horrible investment and shouldn't be treated as any more than entertainment for a chance to sweat a famous ME winner. Which is perfectly OK. Most packages in the 2p2 marketplace today are ridiculously -ev and people still buy them for god knows why. This package is one of them. But all else equal i'd rather sweat a main event champ and maybe get a few chances to chat with him.

I think Greg is a great person and I got to chat with him 5 minutes once when he was volunteering a PPA booth and i got the impression of a sincere, honest man, and a great ambassador for poker. Best of luck in 2015, Greg.

Why is everybody so fixated on the term "markup"? The package I am offering has nothing to do with markup, but is using a completely different method. There is no reasonable, legitimate way to compare the two. Think of the investment world, and money managers. Some of them charge a flat fee to manage your money, and they get paid the same win or lose. Others get a percentage of your profit, but nothing if they break even or lose money for you. If the first guy charges $500/year, and the second charges 5% of the upside, which is the better deal? There is no way to tell! You can pick one as better than the other, but to do so you have to take into account how much you are investing, and a range of expected results.

I am not saying my method is better than markup, just saying it is different, and you cannot compare the two. You need to weigh the value you perceive my package to have, and choose to invest, or not.

Also, I am getting tired of people coming into this thread, and espousing their opinion as to the merits of this investment. I do not recall seeing that very often in any other threads, and do not feel it is appropriate. It is quite standard in long-term live backing for the investor and player to split the profits equally, with the investor paying the expenses along with the buyins. My package only gives me 40%, and I cover all the expenses. The downside compared to the standard arrangement is that this ends with the year, and if we are behind, I owe no makeup. To be honest, I wouldn't mind a more traditional deal, with investors paying expenses and me getting half the profit. But given that there are going to be 25-35 investors, it's not as if they are going to all want to commit to chipping in more funds if that became necessary. So, in exchange for fixing the amount invested, for getting less than half, and for paying expenses, they gave up the make-up at the end of the year.

Not sure why some people think this is a horrible deal at all. My best guess is that investors here are fixated on the markup method, and for reasons of fear of the unfamiliar or whatever they immediately have a bad feeling about anything else. But when it comes to pop psychology, I'm admittedly weak.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

BTW, if you are interested in this deal, there is still time. We are probably going to start the action in about 2 weeks. For more information, please go to www.FossilManpoker.com, click on the contact button, and provide your info as well as ask any questions you have. After that we can communicate by regular email.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Nobody cares about expenses. They have literally no effect on the package. Nobody else in the marketplace ever even mentions expenses because it's so irrelevant. If you want to chase the tourney dragon, you pay your own expenses. That's how it works.