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Where do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line?

03-25-2015 , 04:18 AM
Is this a fist-pump auto shove or do I need a little less than my M of 6.5 to make it more correct?

We're already in the money and getting close to the final few tables and I can tell people are getting nervous. So my FE might be a little higher here.

PokerStars - $150+$12 - 4000/8000 Ante 800 NL - Holdem - 9 players

UTG: 220,830
UTG+1: 425,900
MP: 145,666
MP+1: 213,753
MP+2: 78,460
Hero (CO): 126,474
BTN: 108,755
SB: 261,446
BB: 321,282

9 players post ante of 800, SB posts SB 4,000, BB posts BB 8,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 19,200) Hero has 5 5
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold
Where do you draw the line? Quote
03-25-2015 , 04:26 AM
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Where do you draw the line? Quote
03-25-2015 , 10:19 AM
Excluding $ payjump factors, you can jam < ~25% here.
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03-25-2015 , 11:25 AM
Check Jennifear push charts to give you an anchor.

Here it is a 28% shove at 16BB and 10% ante, so it's AINEC.
Where do you draw the line? Quote
03-25-2015 , 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mashxx
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Lol
Where do you draw the line? Quote
03-25-2015 , 08:42 PM
Pretty happy shoving any pair here.
Where do you draw the line? Quote
03-26-2015 , 08:31 AM
Yeah this isn't even close to the bottom of the range of hands I'd open jam with.
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03-26-2015 , 06:53 PM
suited pair is nuts here, just spin that wheel
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03-26-2015 , 10:09 PM
How large would our stack need to be where an open shove would be inappropriate? How large does it need to be to raise/fold? My theory has always been that it is almost always a mistake to raise/fold in the orange zone.

So if our M were around 8 or 9 I could see this as a very awkward spot.
Where do you draw the line? Quote
03-26-2015 , 10:21 PM
Jam it. Hold off on the fist pump.
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03-27-2015 , 05:13 AM
If you play regularly then strongly advise getting icmizer qnd or holdem resources
Where do you draw the line? Quote
03-27-2015 , 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_horse
How large would our stack need to be where an open shove would be inappropriate? How large does it need to be to raise/fold? My theory has always been that it is almost always a mistake to raise/fold in the orange zone.

So if our M were around 8 or 9 I could see this as a very awkward spot.
A lot of this is player dependant. Playing 15-20 Bigs is not an exact science. So let's say that the guys behind you (or at least one of them) was a very good player. In that case I'd be more inclined to shove here up to 20 bigs. Reason is, if they are very good they may 3 bet shove you and put you in an odd spot. Take that play away from them and just shove it yourself.

BUT...let's say all the guys behind are straight fwd/ nitty. You could get away with a standard open at 12bb or more and know exactly where you stand post flop (incidentally, at 12bb even against them Id probably shove...I'd probably just open at 15bb against this type of V).

If it is unknown, I'd make some judgments based on appearance and go one of those routes. At the end of the day, I don't think you can really go wrong by shoving here at 18bb or less. But again, the optimal play should be decided based on an evaluation of the dudes in the chairs to your left.
Where do you draw the line? Quote
03-27-2015 , 01:31 PM
I think a lot of modern game theory work says that you can push up to 20BB (correct me if I'm wrong), but I think 15-20BB is this gray area, where you should be thinking about raise vs. push vs. fold depending on table dynamics.

In a live $100 tourney, people think you're a mainiac pushing any more than 10BB.
Where do you draw the line? Quote
03-28-2015 , 12:35 AM
I'm assuming this is online and not live
I think knowing the remaining villains' tendencies and ability is pretty crucial for the decision.
In this spot, being a 162$ and deep stages i would shove here pretty much always.
If fields are weaker though and we know that left-to-act players are not getting out of line by restealing much, then i think a viable option for the 16-20bb stack would be to 3x/call vs btn and fold vs sb and bb
3x would discourage peeling and restealing due to perceived lesser fold equity. and could potentially seem as stronger than a 2x.
It also gives us a better price to call if btn shoves
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03-28-2015 , 08:20 AM
Super standard jam, RF is terrible with no blockers when we have so much equity vs 3b shoving range. This late in $162 regs with big stacks in blinds will be pressuring you with their blocker range, and so sooo many 2 overcard hands. Last thing you want is BB to 3b jam a hand like A8o and flip when you can take down all those sweet chippies without SD. You also don't really want BB to peel as 55 plays so bad post. Same with 22.
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