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Midstakes MTT Discussion and analysis of midstakes MTT strategy

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Old 05-17-2017, 05:50 AM   #1
SLBotellon
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Villain donk river?!?!?

hello,
What represent when donking river?





    Party, $20 Buy-in (250/500 blinds, 50 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37726550

    BB: 62,651 (125.3 bb)
    MP2: 59,638 (119.3 bb)
    Hero (BTN): 75,670 (151.3 bb)
    SB: 41,154 (82.3 bb)
    CO: 40,263 (80.5 bb)
    MP3: 53,038 (106.1 bb)
    UTG+2: 15,782 (31.6 bb)
    MP1: 51,804 (103.6 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q Q
    2 folds, MP2 raises to 1,500, 2 folds, Hero raises to 4,955, 2 folds, MP2 calls 3,455

    Flop: (11,060) 3 8 8 (2 players)
    MP2 checks, Hero bets 6,414, MP2 calls 6,414

    Turn: (23,888) 5 (2 players)
    MP2 checks, Hero bets 13,855, MP2 calls 13,855

    River: (51,598) K (2 players)
    MP2 bets 11,750, Hero calls 11,750




    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
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    Old 05-17-2017, 12:26 PM   #2
    hitchens97
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Pre seems a bit large. Might go 4200

    As played:

    It's a very small bet. Perhaps 99,TT, JJ doing a blocking bet?

    Could be some weird thing like KTs where he floated river, and picked up equity on turn.

    I think we'd have heard from an 8 by the turn.

    Given price I think we have to call
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    Old 05-17-2017, 01:21 PM   #3
    jpgiro
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Pre is fine, do agree sizing is a bit big but not horrible. I don't mind larger sizings when we're this deep.

    While our opponent is going to have some Kx a decent percentage of the time, what Kx hands does he realistically have? Maybe some floated Kx with a spade that picked up equity on the turn, but that's maybe 4-5 combos? Even if he's slow playing 98/87/88/33, that's about a dozen combos total that we're behind.

    The other option is blocking and/or trying to get thin value with 99-QQ, which is 19 combos. Even if he's only doing that a third of the time, we have to call.
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    Old 05-17-2017, 01:45 PM   #4
    hitchens97
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    On the slow play possibility, Ed Miller in one of his excellent points said you usually hear from a big hand by the turn.

    You're probably beat, but the odds are just way too good to fold.
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    Old 05-17-2017, 02:22 PM   #5
    hitchens97
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    On the slow play possibility, Ed Miller in one of his excellent points said you usually hear from a big hand by the turn.

    You're probably beat, but the odds are just way too good to fold.
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    Old 05-17-2017, 06:12 PM   #6
    SLBotellon
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hitchens97 View Post
    On the slow play possibility, Ed Miller in one of his excellent points said you usually hear from a big hand by the turn.



    You're probably beat, but the odds are just way too good to fold.


    I never put the range of villain in sets, because if he had a set, on turn he will go 3bet me!?!?!

    YOU play AK like he?

    Don't made sense calling turn to see a ace or king!?


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    Old 05-18-2017, 01:29 PM   #7
    onehandatatime
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    AK, floating. 33, 55, 88, KK , trapping with AA. There aren't many hands that realistically play this way, so I'm thinking it's more AK and villain was getting ambitious, but for the price you're getting I don't think we can ever fold
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    Old 05-18-2017, 05:32 PM   #8
    RiverDood
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SLBotellon View Post
    YOU play AK like he? Don't made sense calling turn to see a ace or king!?
    I wouldn't play AKs that stubbornly if the board was missing me, and someone else kept betting, but at lower levels, some people just can't let it go. I mean, it is AK! And suited, too!

    In a $20 buy-in tournament, I think stubborn AK has to be part of Villain's range in all sorts of situations.
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    Old 05-18-2017, 06:48 PM   #9
    jpgiro
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RiverDood View Post
    I wouldn't play AKs that stubbornly if the board was missing me, and someone else kept betting, but at lower levels, some people just can't let it go. I mean, it is AK! And suited, too!

    In a $20 buy-in tournament, I think stubborn AK has to be part of Villain's range in all sorts of situations.
    Even so, and even if we give him all of his slowplayed sets and 8x, I still think we have to call because he's going to have enough 99-QQ here to make it profitable.
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    Old 05-18-2017, 11:31 PM   #10
    gregz41
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Apart from the river lead, I think AKss is well played.

    OP's line is nice as well, as played we can't fold to that price.
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    Old 05-19-2017, 12:51 AM   #11
    hitchens97
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gregz41 View Post
    Apart from the river lead, I think AKss is well played.

    OP's line is nice as well, as played we can't fold to that price.
    I'm kinda interested in this. I can definitely understand the turn call after we pick up equity, but I really rarely float OOP on the flop, and so I'm interested in what are the key factors here. The fact we have a backdoor draw, just one opponent, the paired board, something else, some combo?
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    Old 05-19-2017, 04:52 AM   #12
    gregz41
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hitchens97 View Post
    I'm kinda interested in this. I can definitely understand the turn call after we pick up equity, but I really rarely float OOP on the flop, and so I'm interested in what are the key factors here. The fact we have a backdoor draw, just one opponent, the paired board, something else, some combo?
    AKss is very likely to be ahead of the 3bet bluffs on this board. You also block him from having part of the value range with KK+ combos being reduced. Additionally, it's nice for your range to be able to make strong pairs on a K/A turn/river rather than just having pairs to call down with.
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    Old 05-22-2017, 05:03 PM   #13
    Mr.Slip
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RiverDood View Post

    In a $20 buy-in tournament, I think stubborn AK has to be part of Villain's range in all sorts of situations.
    ^^ This. Absolutely. in fact, if you partake in any live tourneys, buy-ins up to around $100 feature many many stubborn 'villians.' To get them 'off' their stubborn play, you have to make them 'hurt' earlier in the hand (not just at river time).
    In other words, if i'm playing this, on the flop, my bet is full pot, if not 1.3 pot.. you know he doesnt hold an eight, but for all he knows, you might be playing A-Q this way so he isnt giving up 'for free'...

    one thing i always come back to playing these relatively low buy in tournaments is, you CANNOT give the opponents any credit for thinking like you think... just because you wouldn't play AK this way, is totally irrelevant to how he might play it... so if you don't wanna play your QQ very aggressively, just be aware that there IS a good chance he's thinking he's good....

    good luck
    ~ Slip
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    Old 05-23-2017, 01:39 PM   #14
    user12345
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    Re: Villain donk river?!?!?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gregz41 View Post
    Apart from the river lead, I think AKss is well played.
    As well as 44
    It's $20 mtt on party greg )

    I'm calling too.
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