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Old 05-26-2012, 09:53 AM   #1
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Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

Level is 75/150, table is a late reg table that just opened up. I think this is the only hand villain played. Late 30s/early 40s looking fellow, possibly a foreigner, and is wearing one of those comped Venetian DSE t-shirts. Hero has played maybe 2 hands so far, c/f one, cbet and took it down with the other.

Effective stacks around 12k

Villain UTG+1 raises to 450
Folds to Hero who calls OTB w/ 87
SB calls

Pot 1500

Flop J87
SB checks, villain bets ~1100
Hero raises to 3k (raise a bit more to commit?)
SB folds, villain calls

Pot 7500

Turn T
Villain thinks for like 10 seconds then shoves for 8600 or so
Hero??

After villain called my raise OTF, I put him on a range of FD + 2 overs AKhh/KQhh/AQhh and overpairs AA/KK/QQ. If villain had me crushed I think he would've CRAI the turn since I showed strength OTF and would gladly bet the turn again. I see him taking the line as played with overpairs + FDs but this early it seemed like people are playing straightforward level 1 poker. I didn't plan on re-entering the tournament.

Did hero make a tight fold?

Last edited by LOLshoveaments; 05-26-2012 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 05-26-2012, 10:22 AM   #2
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

yea std disgusting fold.
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Old 05-28-2012, 11:34 AM   #3
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

Not a tight fold. Way too marginal of a situation to risk your tourney life this early. Hopefully he kept making those pushes and you ended up stacking him later
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:10 PM   #4
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

pre is marginal, looking for a bad player to come along in the blinds before i flat here.

flop is good, think you should go a bit larger to get a better stack to pot ratio OTT.

Don't think this is a tight fold, but an easy one.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:38 AM   #5
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

What? Snap fold. What a waste of paper this thread is.
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:38 AM   #6
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

Quote:
Originally Posted by timetowom View Post
What? Snap fold. What a waste of paper this thread is.
U mad bro?
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Old 05-29-2012, 07:50 AM   #7
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

Flop is closer than you'd think; bottom 2 is not that good of a hand on this board: we are crushed vs a value range (with mostly ~zero en sometimes ~four outs) and most draws have a lot of equity vs us because it's rarely naked draws but mostly (FD+gutshot, pair+FD, ....).
Think it's definitely a fold if either player 3bets OTF. This is also not a board where 40yo villains (or any villain for that matter) will c-bet lightly into 2 people, esp not with that sizing.

That said, there's def value to be had from their calling ranges so raising is certainly fine. Just wanted to mention it's not a fistpump get-it-in spot OTF and I don't think we have to raise even bigger.

Easy fold OTT of course.
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:00 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLshoveaments View Post
U mad bro?
Yes.

Pre is meh, flop is bad, turn only option is to fold. So you got like 40% of the hand ethyl and most of that is by default from the turn.
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Old 05-29-2012, 09:10 AM   #9
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

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Originally Posted by timetowom View Post
Yes.

Pre is meh, flop is bad, turn only option is to fold. So you got like 40% of the hand ethyl and most of that is by default from the turn.
U mad.
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Old 05-29-2012, 09:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLshoveaments View Post
U mad.
Yea still. Slightly less tho
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Old 05-29-2012, 09:29 AM   #11
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablito_21 View Post
Flop is closer than you'd think; bottom 2 is not that good of a hand on this board: we are crushed vs a value range (with mostly ~zero en sometimes ~four outs) and most draws have a lot of equity vs us because it's rarely naked draws but mostly (FD+gutshot, pair+FD, ....).
Think it's definitely a fold if either player 3bets OTF. This is also not a board where 40yo villains (or any villain for that matter) will c-bet lightly into 2 people, esp not with that sizing.

That said, there's def value to be had from their calling ranges so raising is certainly fine. Just wanted to mention it's not a fistpump get-it-in spot OTF and I don't think we have to raise even bigger.

Easy fold OTT of course.
Never said anything about getting it in OTF, but still something to consider with regards to bet sizing obviously.

I think we can assign a tight range to villain since he's played one hand so I only see FD + 2 OCs and overpairs with a heart in his range.

edit: calling range
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Old 05-29-2012, 10:00 AM   #12
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

Yeah just wanted to say this because you mentioned in your OP that you should've raised bigger 'to commit' and I don't agree with that. It's not a good idea to commit on this flop with our hand (we have only around 30% equity vs their b/3b ranges). The main difference between our hand and black AA is simply blockers (admittedly a quite important effect), and I don't think we'd be looking to get it in OTF with black aces (a hand that has significantly more equity vs his 1p hands btw).
The only reason for raising bigger is, as gregz41 said, to create a better SPR OTT. That's a viable reason, but if it causes villain to shove or fold his weaker draws because he doesn't think calling is an option anymore vs the larger sizing, it's not really ideal either.

Basically, with our raise we want villain(s) to call with one pair hands and draws and to 3b with hands that have us crushed, and inevitably some monster draws we flip with. I don't think sizing bigger is ideal to accomplish that.
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Old 05-29-2012, 06:52 PM   #13
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Re: Venetian $400: 87s btn, flop bottom 2, gross turn spot

Nice post, tyty.
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