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Midstakes MTT Discussion and analysis of midstakes MTT strategy

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Old 05-18-2017, 10:40 AM   #1
Marecki
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Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    Poker Stars, $24.55 Buy-in (90/180 blinds, 25 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    SB: 15,358 (85.3 bb)
    Hero (BB): 14,197 (78.9 bb)
    UTG+1: 7,450 (41.4 bb)
    UTG+2: 2,620 (14.6 bb)
    MP1: 10,515 (58.4 bb)
    MP2: 9,606 (53.4 bb)
    MP3: 26,373 (146.5 bb)
    CO: 10,000 (55.6 bb)
    BTN: 7,987 (44.4 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with A A
    UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to 396, 3 folds, CO calls 396, BTN folds, SB raises to 1,260, Hero calls 1,080, UTG+2 calls 864, CO folds

    Flop: (4,401) J 5 Q (3 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets 1,800, UTG+2 folds, SB calls 1,800

    Turn: (8,001) 5 (2 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets 2,520, SB calls 2,520

    River: (13,041) J (2 players)
    SB bets 9,753 and is all-in, Hero ?



    V was probably nitty. I chose to trap them to let the remaining players do something stupid preflop and to hide my hand strength.
    My flop & turn play was probably std.
    What do you guys think about his river shove? If he's nitty, I think that queens are the hand he's most likely to have. I'm not sure if it makes sense for him to play kings or aces like that.
    Do you call here?
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    Old 05-18-2017, 10:53 AM   #2
    betgo
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    Larger turn. Call river, but usually not good.
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    Old 05-18-2017, 11:15 AM   #3
    Bethenextbestthing
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    I don't think this is the wright spot to trap.
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    Old 05-18-2017, 11:17 AM   #4
    hitchens97
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    With two in the hand, I 4-bet pre.

    As played, tough.

    I think it's very polarized - it's a boat (or better), or nothing (perhaps busted AK?). I feel KK, AA, AQ would bet flop.

    I probably let this go if your read is a nit.
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    Old 05-18-2017, 11:29 AM   #5
    AALegend
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    I do not think its that polarized. Hero's hand looks like a queen, so as a Villain I shove the river with my AJ (or any other J that managed to get this far for that matter).
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    Old 05-18-2017, 11:45 AM   #6
    hitchens97
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AALegend View Post
    I do not think its that polarized. Hero's hand looks like a queen, so as a Villain I shove the river with my AJ (or any other J that managed to get this far for that matter).
    You're right it could be AJ, but don't think there's anything else in villain's range given he's a nit who 3 bet, and AJ may be doubtful too.

    Last edited by hitchens97; 05-18-2017 at 12:06 PM.
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    Old 05-18-2017, 12:27 PM   #7
    bernardodebiase
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    Bad trapping spot pre, you give great odds for players in position to complete. It's better to do this kind of trapping in 4bet territory rather than 3bet territory. The only merit I see in trapping in 3bet territory is if you have optimal or close to optimal position (CO/BU). CO is in an optimal spot to complete his whole flatting 2b range with his fairly deep stack.

    Flop and Turn is standard play imo. Love your sizings. Got value, got tons of value of your villains range without overreping your hand. Set up pot geometry nicely for a decent river shove (9.8k to 13k spr)

    From your villains perspective: X/R or X/C top set (QQ) in that flop spot is standard. I just don't think x/c twice then donk shove river is a very good line for top set. I think X/C flop and X/R turn, or X/R flop, X/Shove is much better. I think his range has a huge inbalance towards a rivered jack or a busted draw.

    I think it's a close enough spot where you fold some and call some. If you fold all your aces, you're gonna get destroyed by bluffs.

    Given that, the Ad blocks some of the busted FDs that the villain would lead donk the river as a bluff. You definitely want that Ad to be in your opponent's range rather than your hand.

    Given that, what's the villain's bluff hands? AK, AT, AdXd, KT, T9. You block AK and AT, there is no AdXd combos for your villain's to have. KT and T9 are more likely to bluff flops or turns than calling. Effects of card removal says it's more likely villain is on his value range which would be: composed primarily of AA, KK (he is more likely to bet those on flop), top full house (QQ), jacks (AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, J9) and fives (A5s, 65s, 54s, 55). I don't think villain is shoving AQ for value there, but even if he is you also block those.

    Villain's bluff range is very narrow.
    Villain's value range has very little you can beat.

    You need to fold some AA and call some AA for balance. You call your AA without a diamond, you fold your AA with a diamond. Fold.

    Last edited by bernardodebiase; 05-18-2017 at 12:55 PM.
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    Old 05-18-2017, 01:56 PM   #8
    AxeCapital
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    Also agree that it's pretty bad spot for trapping with AA's. EP opens & SB 3bets, there's a pretty good chance you're not going to get 2 folds to your 4bet in $22 tournament. We do look super strong when we 4bet from the BB, but not much we can do to hide it.
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    Old 05-18-2017, 02:08 PM   #9
    RiverDood
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bernardodebiase View Post
    Bad trapping spot pre, you give great odds for players in position to complete. It's better to do this kind of trapping in 4bet territory rather than 3bet territory. . . . I think it's a close enough spot where you fold some and call some. If you fold all your aces, you're gonna get destroyed by bluffs. . . . You need to fold some AA and call some AA for balance. You call your AA without a diamond, you fold your AA with a diamond. Fold.
    +1

    Very nice dissection of the hand, start to finish.

    Welcome to 2+2. Hope to be hearing more from you.
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    Old 05-19-2017, 02:36 AM   #10
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    I don't think preflop is that bad. A 3-bet looks really strong and will take it down to much. Then you are close to face up postflop if called. Not crazy about playing it multiway though.
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    Old 05-19-2017, 07:27 AM   #11
    Marecki
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    Thank you all for your replies,

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bethenextbestthing View Post
    I don't think this is the wright spot to trap.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AxeCapital View Post
    Also agree that it's pretty bad spot for trapping with AA's. EP opens & SB 3bets, there's a pretty good chance you're not going to get 2 folds to your 4bet in $22 tournament. We do look super strong when we 4bet from the BB, but not much we can do to hide it.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bernardodebiase View Post
    Bad trapping spot pre, you give great odds for players in position to complete. It's better to do this kind of trapping in 4bet territory rather than 3bet territory. The only merit I see in trapping in 3bet territory is if you have optimal or close to optimal position (CO/BU). CO is in an optimal spot to complete his whole flatting 2b range with his fairly deep stack.
    Well, I'm pretty sure he will fold AK to 4bet, maybe QQ too, so I only get value from kings and chop with aces - I also leave no place for the others to do something stupid. UTG is short so his presence in this hand won't matter - the worst thing about this is giving good odds for CO to call but even with having him postflop with his SPR <2 the pros of trapping could overweight the cons IMO (not sure tho). And if UTG decides to shove (players tend to minraise strong hands on stack depths that could be just played by shoving) I still will be able to reraise, won't I?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bernardodebiase View Post
    Flop and Turn is standard play imo. Love your sizings. Got value, got tons of value of your villains range without overreping your hand. Set up pot geometry nicely for a decent river shove (9.8k to 13k spr)

    From your villains perspective: X/R or X/C top set (QQ) in that flop spot is standard. I just don't think x/c twice then donk shove river is a very good line for top set. I think X/C flop and X/R turn, or X/R flop, X/Shove is much better. I think his range has a huge inbalance towards a rivered jack or a busted draw.

    I think it's a close enough spot where you fold some and call some. If you fold all your aces, you're gonna get destroyed by bluffs.

    Given that, the Ad blocks some of the busted FDs that the villain would lead donk the river as a bluff. You definitely want that Ad to be in your opponent's range rather than your hand.

    Given that, what's the villain's bluff hands? AK, AT, AdXd, KT, T9. You block AK and AT, there is no AdXd combos for your villain's to have. KT and T9 are more likely to bluff flops or turns than calling. Effects of card removal says it's more likely villain is on his value range which would be: composed primarily of AA, KK (he is more likely to bet those on flop), top full house (QQ), jacks (AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, J9) and fives (A5s, 65s, 54s, 55). I don't think villain is shoving AQ for value there, but even if he is you also block those.

    Villain's bluff range is very narrow.
    Villain's value range has very little you can beat.

    You need to fold some AA and call some AA for balance. You call your AA without a diamond, you fold your AA with a diamond. Fold.
    I like this. Well explained.
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    Old 05-20-2017, 12:39 AM   #12
    hitchens97
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    results?
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    Old 05-20-2017, 05:56 AM   #13
    Marecki
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    Queens

    Wysłane z mojego Redmi Note 3 przy użyciu Tapatalka
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    Old 05-24-2017, 11:41 AM   #14
    bernardodebiase
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    Re: Trapped aces vs strange river shove

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marecki View Post
    Queens

    Wysłane z mojego Redmi Note 3 przy użyciu Tapatalka
    That's a very exploitable river play by villain.

    He just bailed out all the busted flushes and straight draws you have in your range on a mandatory bluffing spot, and in an attempt to not give a cheap check back on the river to top pair types of hands, gave a fold opportunity to a lot of hands that would bet for value on the river that he beats (overpairs, top pairs, some fives). Keep that in note.
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