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Pocket JJ Pocket JJ

04-05-2017 , 08:58 AM
Big 16,50 on Stars.I have like 7k, villain has 8k, blinds 60-120.I raise JJ 270 he calls on the button and bb calls.Flop 10107 with 2 clubs I have the J of clubs.I check and both check.Turn an 8 of spade I bet 445 into 1k pot he check raises to 1.6k and I fold.I thought I blocked clubs draw, I also block j9 so what do you think?
Pocket JJ Quote
04-05-2017 , 11:48 AM
I think you've outsmarted yourself on this one.

Let's see this through Villain's eyes. A lot of your preflop range consists of unpaired overcards to the board. AJ; KQ; that sort of stuff. You're not playing this hand postflop with much conviction, which means . . . .

Villain can value bet any small PP, which hasn't improved but might still be good. Villain can also bluff at the pot with unimproved overcards or mid-sized connectors that have a gutshot, etc. Lots of stuff in Villain's range is behind JJ, but there's no reason he should assume you have an overpair.

Given that you're this far down the road, call the turn and either c/c the river for any non-giant bet, or donk bet the river and leave your opponent even more bewildered.

I'd opt for a c-bet on the flop. Simpler line.

A while ago I ran numbers on how JJ fares in a three-way pot, called by two opponents with top 10% to 20% hands, with action going all the way to the river. JJ is a modest favorite (at about 42%), but nearly half of those wins occur when JJ makes a set. If it doesn't make a set -- and you give the guys with random Broadways enough time -- you're only winning the pot about 25% of the time. Unless you've got great reads or confidence that you can outplay either Villain, why not just get money in the middle when you're likely ahead?
Pocket JJ Quote
04-05-2017 , 12:12 PM
I think a flop c-bet here is ok. We can deny equity to some overcards, get value from worse PP's and draws. Our opponents are going to have a T here a fair portion of the time, but depending on our opening position so are we. (that's why it's important to note what position you were in when you started the hand - if we're UTG we have fewer Tx hands than we would in the cutoff) I think on a board like this JJ doesn't make that much sense to be in a checking range.

As played we're effectively bluffcatching as our opponent's range is mostly going to be Tx, 77, or draws. Having Jc and JJ in general isn't great in that regard because we block some draws our opponent might have. I don't really hate a fold on the turn, but I wonder if c/c turn with the intention of value betting safe rivers if it checks through is better at this point since we've taken such a passive line.
Pocket JJ Quote
04-05-2017 , 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverDood
I think you've outsmarted yourself on this one.

Let's see this through Villain's eyes. A lot of your preflop range consists of unpaired overcards to the board. AJ; KQ; that sort of stuff. You're not playing this hand postflop with much conviction, which means . . . .

Villain can value bet any small PP, which hasn't improved but might still be good. Villain can also bluff at the pot with unimproved overcards or mid-sized connectors that have a gutshot, etc. Lots of stuff in Villain's range is behind JJ, but there's no reason he should assume you have an overpair.

Given that you're this far down the road, call the turn and either c/c the river for any non-giant bet, or donk bet the river and leave your opponent even more bewildered.

I'd opt for a c-bet on the flop. Simpler line.

A while ago I ran numbers on how JJ fares in a three-way pot, called by two opponents with top 10% to 20% hands, with action going all the way to the river. JJ is a modest favorite (at about 42%), but nearly half of those wins occur when JJ makes a set. If it doesn't make a set -- and you give the guys with random Broadways enough time -- you're only winning the pot about 25% of the time. Unless you've got great reads or confidence that you can outplay either Villain, why not just get money in the middle when you're likely ahead?
The thing is I check llike 80% of the time OOP even with over pairs or sets or boats or nothing.
Pocket JJ Quote
04-05-2017 , 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nassacryl
The thing is I check like 80% of the time OOP even with over pairs or sets or boats or nothing.
Interesting.

If I know that you'll almost always give me a free turn card, I'd be willing to take you on with a lot of drawing hands that I wouldn't want to play in the face of a likely c-bet.

Not sure if that's an exploitable issue, but it's distinctive enough that it could change the way discerning players evaluate their options against you.
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04-05-2017 , 06:25 PM
Just cbet the board ffs . Cant think of any good reason to check on dry boards vs unknowns
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04-11-2017 , 12:50 AM
10107 2 clubs is much better flop for your hand and range than opponents. They don't have a 10 here often but they will have a large amount of drawing hands that you aren't charging to complete. also you can get some value out of smaller pp and 7x. I think cbeting flop is best.
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