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Old 06-26-2012, 06:51 AM   #1
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Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

Tournament buy-in: 40$ + 1x 40$ rebuy/addon (you can use the addon/rebuy anytime in the first 5 levels)
Starting stack: 7000 + 13000
Levels: 25 minutes
Blinds: 25/50,50/100,150/300,150/300(25a), 200/400(25a), 300/600(50a)...
Players: 45

My situation:
Players: 33/45
Blinds: 300/600(50a)
Average stack: 26 300
My stack: 40 000

I was currently a chip leader but not by much. I won a few hands in showdown with AA/KK/AK, my table image was quite tight, so was my 3betting range.

THE HAND:
Highjack (tight player) raises to 750, Button (loose-aggresive) 3bets to 2100, I find TT on the big blind and since I suspect HJ to hold hands like AK/AQs and Button (stack 30k) pretty much any two, I decide just to call and see the flop. I am afraid if I 4bet preflop that HJ reshoves with his stack (20k) and I dont want to flip for a half of my stack in this spot. HJ calls.

Flop goes: 7h 2h 6x (pot is around 7k)
BB(me): check, HJ: check, Button: bets 3100 ..... I decide just to call and see what button does on the turn on such a blank board, I assign hands like KQ/KJ to him so far....HJ folds.
TURN: 8x
I check with an intention of checkraise, my thoughs are : he's either drawing to flush or holding over cards, based on previous experience I don't think im up against JJ/QQ/KK/AA. Button bets 5700 leaving himself around 16k behind, my stack is now about 31k. In the end I decided just to call and let him bluff on the river if a brick comes, which was the 4 of clubs.
I check, he goes all in. I was close to folding my hand with a 4 cards to straight on board (7 2 6 8 4) but I couldn't imagine that he could have been holding a five in his hand because of the way the hand was played. I called, he had K-5 off, I left myself with 10k stack and busted out later shoving with 77 against AJ&QQ..not important.

Anyway it was a really bad experience and I would like to know your thoughts, I welcome even the most negative thoughts and opinions so open your heart and be sincere.

My thoughts: Should have I folded the hand preflop or at any later street?
Should have I 4bet the hand preflop or check-raise at any later street? (I probably should have but since the player on the button played really loose, I kinda wanted to trap him and make him pay me out).

Thank you for your opinions! I hope I wrote this in a decent format, it could be a bit shorter, I realize that...
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:19 AM   #2
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

vs. a laggy 3-bet you should absolutely 4-bet pre. If OR shoves you'll have to puke fold but I don't think that's happening anywhere near as often as you think.

I'm not going to comment on postflop, because it's hard to think about it when I already know what happened. Next time don't post results.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:27 AM   #3
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

not sure if we can 4bet/fold 33BB here. with the dead money (if BTN folds) it might be a 4b/call even vs a tight range. vs QQ+/AK we have 36% and we need ~34% if we make it ~5.5k to go. any bigger sizing and we absolutely have to 4b/call it imo. and in this spot I do think we have to size it bigger than 5.5k so as to not get hooded by BTN

vs BTN's range I think you're good to c/shove the flop.

as played I don't think you can fold otr if you put broadways into villain's range. My only issue is with your reasoning. you say his 3bet could be any two cards but then say you can't see him holding a 5. does not compute.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:31 AM   #4
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

heh, didn't notice OR's stack, obv 4-bet call then.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:55 AM   #5
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

either blinds are wrong or raise sizes are wrong, think it's 150/300 so 66BB with OR and even more with 3bettor.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:25 PM   #6
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

Kind of hard to comment after you've posted results. The only thing you may want to re-consider is calling the river shove. Not because of the results but in general, w/ all types of fish except for the most crazy they generally have a hard time tripple barrel bluffing for their entire stack.

What usually happens is they double barrel and shut down when they miss on the river, UNLESS THEY HIT THEIR HAND.

Of course when they hit it doesn't always have to be as strong as something as a straight. It could be them hitting their overs or just one of their side cards.

With that being said it's your job to sniff these spots out.

So, if you're going to do this in the future you kind of have to mentally prepare yourself to fold if they fire a 3rd barrel because when the majority of them do they usually have it, especially this late in a tournament. Most of them fire 2 barrels and shut down no matter what the board texture is. They can't read board texture unless they hit it. So if they blindly fire twice and then miss the river then they'll sheepishly put their gun away and shutdown. If they blidnly fire twice and smash a river they'll shove or sometimes overbet to "Make it look like a bluff."

Like I said, there are exceptions, but if you're just going off pure numbers I'd say about 95% of them would have a very hard time tripple barrel bluffing in a spot similar to this.
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:30 PM   #7
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablito_21 View Post
either blinds are wrong or raise sizes are wrong, think it's 150/300 so 66BB with OR and even more with 3bettor.
Yep you're right, it was 150/300
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Old 06-26-2012, 01:36 PM   #8
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

It's my first topic here on 2+2forum, I'm sorry about posting the results, didn't know that I shouldn't mention the whole story...I'll know that now.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your comments guys.
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Old 06-26-2012, 02:22 PM   #9
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

66bb then 4b/fold
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:22 PM   #10
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

5k/f vs OR, call BTN
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Old 06-28-2012, 06:40 AM   #11
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

Cold 4betting pre OOP isn't mandatory. You're just going to have to 4b/f if OR moves in considering how narrow a range he is representing.

Post flop, check and reevaluate. HiJ checks as well. I've knocked out AA-JJ from his range - unless he's really laying a "trap" (a lot of live fish love the idea of being tricky) - not really concerned about that. IMO you have to protect your tens by k/r'ing button after HiJ shows two weak actions (just calling pre flop despite you cold calling a 3b OOP, and checking the flop). We are protecting from overs and flush/straight draws. The flop isn't dry.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:51 AM   #12
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrannyAmbush View Post
Cold 4betting pre OOP isn't mandatory. You're just going to have to 4b/f if OR moves in considering how narrow a range he is representing.

Post flop, check and reevaluate. HiJ checks as well. I've knocked out AA-JJ from his range - unless he's really laying a "trap" (a lot of live fish love the idea of being tricky) - not really concerned about that. IMO you have to protect your tens by k/r'ing button after HiJ shows two weak actions (just calling pre flop despite you cold calling a 3b OOP, and checking the flop). We are protecting from overs and flush/straight draws. The flop isn't dry.
you suggesting we flat the 3bet?
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Old 06-28-2012, 10:23 AM   #13
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

If I could pick one hand that I wouldn't want to play out of position in a 3bet pot it would be TT.

Reverse implied odds are terrible.
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:45 AM   #14
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Re: Playing TT out of position, I need your thoughts

I think you have to 4bet and squeeze the HJ depending on the read you may/may not have from when he was 3bet by the button. Put your $5k to work pre-flop and C-bet most boards. A flat pre is a commitment of at least that and doesn't get any information on hand range from the button.
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