Couple of turn spots that I would like to look at from recent tourneys. Thanks

Hand 1
First is from a $1100 Venetian tourney. Opponent has recently been moved to table; competent, young, knows other regs;has started out on tight side but I feel its based on cards not style. I look about 40 or so, nice shirt, no hat, headphones, or sunglasses.

Hero- $28K
Villain- $23K
Blinds- 200/400 25a

Hero opens A10hh to 900 from EP, 1 flat from button, villain flats SB, fold

Pot (3500)
Flop- 863hhs
villain checks, Hero bets 1500, fold, villain calls

Turn (6500)- Ac
villain checks, hero?


Hand 2
Del Park $340 tourney, overall play is str8 forward by a lot of middle aged low buyin regs. Villain is of the same type. Pretty str8 forward. Won a hand early where he raised big when he had the nuts. Haven't seen other raise sizes to compare. Has about 5 types stack to nearest at the table and seems to be flatting a pretty wide range pre with his stack(never light 3b)

Hero- 25K
Villain- 125K
blinds- 300/600 100a
Hero opens 99s to 1400 from MP, Villain flats from HJ, SB flats, Fold

Flop (5000)- 7, 6, 3 with 2 clubs (don't remember which was clubs)
SB checks, Hero bets 2500, Villain calls, SB folds

Turn (10K)- 3x, no club
Hero?

I would bet both hands for value.

Hand 1:

His flatting range otf is still wide, he may call your cbet with some draws that you may want to get value from (even though you block many FD combos), some 8x hands, pocket pairs and other stuff. The A is also a great card for you to barrel no matter what, because its way more in your range than in his, if he is aware of that (he seems competent) he is probably calling you ott with worst. Of course you may be behind by some A8, sets, but I think there are still more value targets than better hands in his range.


Hand 2:

This is so draw heavy that a lot of his range is composed by these draws. The 3 is actually one of the best cards for you, there are not many 3s on his range. I would bet targeting value from all of the draws and some wild pair he may have. Maybe there is some TT/JJ and sets on his range, but I think it also has more worst/drawing hands than better hands then yours.

Hand 1
Check back turn and draw at the nut flush for free.
Sets up great river spot either way (unlikely to get 3 streets value anyway).

Hand 2
Not much has changed. Betting again makes sense.

Classic fishy thing to do when Hero has A. WP nitti for hand 1.

Definitely betting turn in hand one, it puts him in a really awkward spot to raise any of his hands whether its for value or as a semi-bluff...so I can't see him raising the turn almost ever. it would leave him with a 1/4pot bet OTR which is horrible.

Also it keeps us balanced to bet the A since it is supposed to be in our range much more frequently than his, he can't just fold his 8x or FD's yet.

You really think you're going to get value on turn AND river with a worse hand than AT???
Why not check back, let him have his crappy draw vs. our nut draw and then bluff catch the river??

No brainer IMO.

There are some reasons to bet turn.

- Balancing our betting range ott: as I said the A is always a good for us to barrel, so when we actually have it we should bet it for value or it will get exploitable

- Pure value: If the opponent have an 8 he is probably not folding to a turn bet and for sure he is probably never going to fold a flush draw, so we get value from both. We got to think that there is a good chance that he is simply going to c/f a busted draw otr, so we are losing value from it when not betting the turn.

Depending on the player we can get 3 streets of value with a thin value otr from an 8x/99/TT, and we are certainly not going to lose value from another draw in case we get there, because players are not folding a draw ott very often. Considering we are in position our life otr is much easier and we can decide when to value bet and when to cb.

Hand 1 -

If you vbet turn and he C/R, what do you do and why? Do you think A10hh is ahead of his C/R range?

Hand 2 -

Prob keep betting for value until given reason to rethink you don't have best hand. Feels like you should be winning a lot of the time w/given action.

Probably the tendencies we most care about are:
Player A: Capable of paying off 3 streets light
Player B: Likely to take river stab if he thinks he has fold equity

Factoring in the slim chance that we're actually behind on the turn, we'd have to be awfully confident we're dealing with type A to bet the turn and river

If villain c/r us ott his range is probably 2 pair+ and most of the times we are only drawing to the flush, so if the raise is big enough that the are stacks too shallow, that we cant draw profitably its probably a fold. It obviously sucks because we could draw for free, but I dont think we are getting c/r often enough to make me want to cb. We are probably losing much more value when dont bet the turn than when we get c/r and have to fold this hand.


It seems to me that villain's attempt to bluff the river is so awful that most players wont even try. There is a obvious missed draw out there, and when we cb turn it seems way too obvious that we have a value hand and that we are going to call a river bet.
If we decide to go for a 3rd street of value otr and villain folds we are not losing money anyway, so I dont think it should be such a big deal. There is always a small chance that we are losing the hand, but on this board given the action is not much likely, so the range of hands we are targeting for value is much bigger that the range we are losing.

Getting check raised on the turn carries a small part of his range...A is great to continue to extract from 8x and all other draws.

Would you agree that A10 is pretty strong on an

8 6 3 A board?

Some Q's about why checking the turn is so "bad" here -

What river cards are you worried about if we're already winning on the turn?

Can villain flat AJ+ in sb? Would you C/R turn with AJ+ here if you were villain?

Does villain become deceived about our hand strength when we check turn?

What river cards do we have good implied odds to really hurt him on? Why?

Other possibilities for checking back. Decide for yourselves how likely:
A. Villian value bets worse than AT (same hands that would call turn)
B. River is a heart and villian decides to rep a flush

I'm betting both of these hands for value.

Hand 1

I think we are getting c/r very rarely on this turn and most of the time the villain will be turning his hand face up (small range). Most people are also raising the flop here in a multi-way pot with top two or a set. I can't imagine most players calling 700 OOP with A8 and A6 (likely dominated hands preflop), but I'd rather learn this on the turn (and we would) than call off the river "hoping" to catch a bluff. We need to get value from 8x hands, 6x hands, and smaller flush draws (maybe for straight draws as well). I'd probably throw in a nice value bet of 3500 or so. In addition to barreling the A as stated above (which I agree with), I think a thin value bet might disguise our flush draw a little bit as well.

Hand 2

No change from the flop. Bet the turn. I would certainly hope that the V folds, because I really hate the stack sizes and our position for the river.

Appreciate the comments, I have some thoughts that I will share later but figure I can continue on with my action.

Hand 1-
Turn (6500)- Ac
villain checks, hero bets 2500, villain raises to 8000, hero?

Hand 2-
Turn (10K)- 3x, no club
Hero bets 3500, Villain raises to 10K, hero?

Both hands = No clue! Talk about groping around in the dark.

One things for sure. I'd immediately throw them both into the push or fold category (and I'm not even sure that's right either).

The deciding vote could easily come down to history, image, reads etc.

Hand 1 is debatable between call and fold. Hand two is instafold

Hand 1:

Its really close and it depends on the opponents pre flop calling range. If villain is calling 88,66,33,A8s,A6s,A3s,86s,A8o,A6o,A3o,86o pre flop we have a small profitable going with our hand. Our equity is 29,55% vs this range ott and we need 28,88% equity by pot odds.
If villains pre flop range is tighter not playing 86o/A3o our equity becomes 26,18% and we dont have odds to continue. Our equity goes down as villains pre flop range gets tighter.

Knowing that we dont have this math when playing, I would probably go with the timing to decide this.
If I decide to continue with the hand, I would just call, because I know I cant win the hand if I dont improve and he is not folding any portion of his range to a shove. I also dont think he is folding any river card, because villain has certainly a strong hand and 10k stack behind, and there are 26k in the pot. Of course it seems we are pot commited, but I think its a waste of chips to put more chips in the pot when you know you cant win, even if the odds are great. With any A/T/Xh Im calling/shoving the river.


Hand 2:

One thing is for sure: If villain is raising you for value, he has you beat. There is no way villain is c/r river with worst there, so you have to think if villain is capable of c/r this turn as a bluff with some kind of draw or something.
The problem with this hand is that the hands villain is representing are very narrow.. I dont think he is going to c/r any overpair he called pre flop and flop with, and also dont think he is c/r 67. When c/r this turn he is representing a straight (45) or a fullhouse (66/77) not many 3s in his range. Im not sure about what I would do there, but I know that I usually dont like folding when villain is representing such a narrow hand, thats probably a big leak in my game... If I decide to go with the hand, there is also no reason to raise, just call turn and probably have to call the river too (I realize this is a real bad scenario).

Agree with Hand 2 being fold,

I think whether or not to bet the turn for both is perhaps more an interesting question than what to do after the raise. Perhaps more discussion on that is warranted. to finish hand 1,

Hand 1-
Turn (6500)- Ac
villain checks, hero bets 2500, villain raises to 8000, hero calls

River (22.65K)- As
Villain waits about 20s and shoves, hero?