As with most of my hand histories... this one I'm out of position!

Blinds

Early in a live $365 full-ring circuit event.
Blinds 100-200
Effective stacks are 6,000+ (early in tourney).

5(!) limps ranging from UTG+1 to button...
SB - Hero w/ 1010 - ?

What's a good raise size here? Stack sizes are awkward because a raise to 1500 or so is 1/4 my stack but there's a 50%+ chance of overpair on the flop. Our stacks at 30BB are too big to jam. No antes in play, yet.

Do we ever just call here to set mine vs a bunch of terrible players? In live games, especially low stakes, people don't go 3bet/4bet crazy. They like to call down and see flops. If I raise here to 1200-1400 I would honestly expect 1-2 callers and be out of position with likely overcards on the flop. It's kind of a puke situation.

How do you guys play these hands with 25-35 blinds?

With 5 limps, any reasonable raise is probably not going to do anything but leave you OOP in a bloated pot. Your assessment of that is spot on.

This is a case where your 30bb is not as much a factor as the fact that the pot is 6.5bb already, counting your SB and the BB.

I would jam here unless you have reason to believe the BB or an early limper has a big hand. This is likely to pick up the pot and you only really have to worry about BB or UTG+1 limp/raising AA. The pot is big enough that it's worth picking up, and these $365's are somewhat turboish to begin with. Note that for balance, this means you should also be jamming any other hand you want to play here like JJ+/AK.

If you have some kind of live read, then just limp and take a flop, folding if you don't hit a 10. It's generally bad poker, but live reads can make otherwise wrong plays correct.

Easy raise for value to like 1,2K, we have a strong hand vs a bunch of weak players i would prob just complete SB w/ 22-77.

Shove

Why, afraid to play postflop?

Can we just complete here?

Don't really want to raise huge and have an awkward SPR if we get 1 caller. Don't want to bloat the pot OOP with a hand that rarely improves on a flop.

Completing is simply worse than a shove, but you could do it. You have to fold to basically any board that isn't your dream flop, since how many boards won't have an overcard or a flushdraw with 6 way action.

Outplay - My only objection to a regular raise is that hero has almost no room to maneuver. If you make it 1200 and get even 1 caller, the pot is 3400 and your stack is 5000, which is an awful spot on at least 50% of the flops you are going to see.

Take a flop like Js 6s 4x. Suppose you check and V bets 1500, are you shoving or folding?

Suppose instead you lead 1500 and he jams?

These outcomes are too likely and too poor to advocate taking a flop. In position, I would raise to 1200 and take a flop, but being guaranteed OOP, I would rather scoop the pot or risk a flip.

As a general rule when we have less than 6x the size of the pot it's a reasonable spot to shove. Unless you have some kind of sick live read that your opponent is limping a monster hand, there really is no other play with all the dead money in the middle.

There's just not gonna be much room to play post and being OOP w a low spr and TT ain't that funny, so I'd be very happy to take it down pre. It has the additional value of the occasional l/c w a rdm small PP.

OK , so seems everyone agrees that shove or limp is better.
They might call w/ 99, but just don't see worse hands calling than 99 , also why risk 6k+ to win 1,2k?
Also if we raise , and some of players are trapping and face a 3bet/shove we could easily fold.
I mean weak players can have here 96s, Q8o and A3o and **** , so why not charge those hands and play some postflop , where they can overvalue tp and most likely go broke since weak players tend to put you like 99% of time on AK (when we have an overpair) imo.


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i think your argument is that shoving is a very high variance play when in reality its seems way higher variance to make a non ai raise and go postflop oop against multiple opponents with tens. also this is a 365$ live turbo mtt, people can def call a shove with worse than 99.

Thanks for all the feedback guys - I ended up limping, not hitting a set, and folding to overcards.

Just wondering if there was a better strategy for these types of hands.

I think limp was OK and if I had any less chips like 5k I would have shoved.

Seems like with 30bbs here its a clear shove pre. Calling pre seems almost worse then folding and committing 1/4 of ur stack with a normal raise pre can put you in some really ugly spots. I actually think that when you do get called sometimes you're still crushing. I wouldn't be surprised for someone to put you on ak and call with 5's-9's. On the other hand as well I do think you get one better hand in jjs to fold pre. (A lot of these older guys in these events hate jacks and have no clue what to do)

shove - you're OOP, and a hand that will play terribly against a couple of limp callers with low SPR

I'm a little confused. I don't understand how limping is such a bad play. I think that limping almost any two cards into a family pot is acceptable from the small blind. So how is it such a tragic error to do so with above average holdings?

I'm not saying I wouldn't push, necessarily. If it is 20 minute levels, push every time. 30 minute levels, push at least some of the time. If it's any slower than that, then maybe pump the brakes.

Granted you may be losing some value, but at this early stage of the day I'd rather lose a little bit of value than all of my chips. You can`t win the tournament here, or even do a whole lot to guarantee a cash, but you can definitely lose it.

I hate to get all of my chips committed in situations where the only hands that will call me are the ones I do poorly against. And the value you lose will be compensated by the much bigger pots you will win with your hidden strength. Not to mention avoiding the hands that will call and beat you, which will be a lot more frequent than the hands they call and pay you off. If 5 people limp, and the BB is yet to play, those hands are out there.

You're getting 13-to-one on a call. Your 10`s are miles ahead of that. You have a hand you can call with if the BB should squeeze. limping is not a bad play.

shove if initial limper is not super trappy
you'll get calls from worse pairs in late position too

Shove

You can get called by worse. Please. I've shoved 99-QQ against a limped family pot in similar early tournament situations and I've been called by all sorts of deli meats such as bologna, 77, AT, KJ, etc. So rarely do I get called by better.

Shove for sure....

Take away people's positional advantage and jam. It is unlikely you are behind anyone with the rare exception the UTG player decided to trap.

Jam will be a lot better than limp and people folding a combined share of 60-80% equity is a pretty good thing in all honesty. You're going to under realise your equity if you complete and go 7 ways to the flop.

I'm jamming here.

At this blind level if I was going to raise with 5 limpers from the SB I'd probably make it 1,900 or so (OTB I'd make it 1,700). That is > 30% of my stack so I'm pot committed pre-flop at least. Might as well take position out of play as gregz notes.

I'm happy to get hands like AJ/KQ to fold to the shove that might otherwise call. Even AQ might fold.

Its possible JJ called somewhere along the line and calls this jam. But then 99 might do that as well... And we just might get JJ to fold.

yea raising is just guna start the value train

I would jam it in here...A value raise will only invite disaster being that everyone wants to see the flop and are obv rec players. Take down the 6/7 bb or get called by a worse hand heads up I think is the best strategy at this level.