you're face

if you're sure he's bluffing you should jam in case he misclick calls worse

The problem with bluffcatching this river is the only hands you beat are missed flush draws lower than an ace. One of the straight draws just got there, the A9, K9s, Q9s and T9 may still bet for value and the J9 and lower sets are betting out too. I don't think there's enough chips in the pot to be worth the risk

you're losing to about 10 ranges on the river and beating 8 or 9

what did you not understand about 'V is bluffing here (line/timing/sizing) on this action and my A8o has significant sdv against his range.'

not sure why you just called river. shoving is better so you fold out chops.

Why is this such a mandatory open pre?

it's not mandatory ^

i'm disappointed that ppl called bs on the OP and derailed the thread. it should be clear from the spoiler that this wasn't a brag post.

lissi ur a smart guy but it's rly dumb to underestimate ppl, especially in poker. ur right in saying that there are hands in his range that he may consider to be bluffs that are ahead. but i had my reasons for discounting that part of his range due to pre/post action and in particular timing/sizing. would have been happy to discuss range construction in any amount of detail and at the end of it you may have realized that there was a depth to my reasoning in the spot. while you may be a better poker player than me, you're not better in every spot and every situation. you're still super young but i strongly urge you not to call me a fool again because i may take offense. we play the same live mtts at the same level and i run deep too, so eventually it's going to create a really awkward and unpleasant spot.

as for the thread, who cares. bluff threads get hated on almost every time so this is nothing new. this was a genuine attempt to create an unusual thread and discuss a spot where the bluff was highly likely and figure the optimum line given his range.

i'd rather do that with people whose games i know and this seemed a better example than anything else that came out of my HH yesterday. the $5/ssmtt thing is fkg stupid, pedantic and trivial. George u make me laugh so hard. isux/lissi, u got so sucked in. bikram, thanks buddy!

i might write more later but i just wanna state quickly that i wasnt a dick to u

it's the rules. follow them

@isux - i did. and until your name lights up in green over there how about you make your point once, not 700 times. it's weird. i'm here to discuss strat not have a pissing contest.
@lissi - **** w/e

i already told you that your actions have been having negative consequences on the rest of the forum. if the mods don't want to do their jobs, then the players should be able to police the forum themselves.

don't make me laugh. negative consequences = 2 players posting a $5 thread for ****s n giggles. they posted because of your soapbox, not because i posted this thread.

i'm actually really surprised by this. let me respond in detail.

1. i know who you are and know you've had a great year or two also, but that doesn't give you the right to start lording it over other successful regs and i call bs on the attempt. i've read every thread here for three years and understand both the rules and the exceptions. the exception here couldn't be clearer. go police someone else.

2. FYI the mods ARE modding this discussion and they're rolling their eyes at your last comment.

3. you've assumed that the thread is trivial and completely missed this point that this is a nuanced spot that is worth a second look.

even when i tell you that V is bluffing, there is still an issue of whether he is bluffing with better and the best options through the hand as a result. c/c c/jam is prob the best line, but there may be a solid strat arguments for c/c c/c, c/jam ott, c/c b/c, c/c c/jam, fff, rff. with many possible options it is certainly not a trivial spot.

the discussion should have started with range construction then moved to line strat and maybe a conclusion or two, but it was utterly derailed by your negativity. we didn't even get near it.

4. i don't see how any useful conclusions could be drawn by looking at this hand in ssmtt. i'm not saying that the players who post there are necessarily beginners, as i know that puzo/EP/bik and others spend as much time there as here and hsmtt - but it is generally a forum to discuss less complex spots. a hand like this has a bare chance in msmtt, let alone there.

5. if the mods ever change the sticky to remove the posters discretion i will post every $5 hand to ssmtt. the exception has merit though and i doubt they ever will.

the simple fact is that the OP was too left-field for discussion and i get that. we'll all head back to 'should i 3betjam AK in xyz spot'.

bikram - sorry mate, hand over the mayor badge. you've been dethroned.

Well i reported those threads and they got moved to SSMTT. Mods do work, but only when called upon.

You said he's bluffing. you call or raise. I don't understand why this is interesting. You gave such a sure read that he's bluffing that you could always go all in and win since he can not re bluff you and if he's bluffing then he can not call. There's 0 risk if he's bluffing. There is no "range construction." Basically what you said is he flipped his hand over. If a guy flips his hand over live you either go all in or you fold, you normally don't click call because he could level himself or whatever and you're just negative freerolling yourself if you have him beat or tied. This thread almost seems like a brag that you have such a sure read on a villain, and yet you still messed it up by clicking call and only receiving half of the pot.

Please stick to posting threads in the appropriate forum in the future. You are a veteran poster; it's a shame that you disrespect the guidelines of this forum and refuse to accept other forums as an acceptable means of getting strategy. SSMTT is there because it's a place to discuss strategy for buyins of tournaments like this.

+1 op you are in the wrong here

yes you reported this thread too and it didn't get moved. this is becoming a little demeaning though, so i suggest we call it quits. there's no chance of a strat discussion.

Let it go children. Thanks to those who took the time to report legit issues. We do our best but help is always appreciated.

Carry on

fold pre.

i reported it a couple hours ago. i didn't report it immediately because i didn't think to do that. once i saw the onslaught of threads that don't deserve to be here, i decided to take action and i still left this one behind until you gave me the idea to do so.


@ssnyc, there's nothing wrong going on here. We are having a discussion, no trolling or anything. Please save your energy for threads that deserve it.

I am curious what other people think about this spot regardless of the size of the tournament. Also, I would like to cut OP some slack simply because his posts have been extremely helpful - to me anyway...

I give this type of spot consideration and yet I never shove here. I always get caught up thinking that my read could be wrong - or he could have walked into a big hand by the river.

By assuming this is a bluff we are taking slow played flopped sets out of his range. And also 9x which I think have to make up some part of his range.

Of the draws that show up on the turn one came in and we beat almost all of the others (86, two 's).

He is very unlikely to have AT:diamond which is really the only draw that didn't get there that beats us. I would assume AQ would play differently either pre-flop or just check back the river.

Ultimately the decision is what % of time does his bluff have us beat (that he would fold to our shove) vs. what % of time he calls down with whatever weak crappola he has (that somehow beats us) because he knows we are bluffing without a pair. And take the size of the pot into consideration...

I do actually think that the fact this is a $5 tourney might come into it because it may just increase the likelihood of a hero call.

Because of OP's read we are discounting combinations of 9x and Jx. Also, PP's are out (he would have bet the flop). But I still wouldn't shove here because I think we beat most of his bluffs that were air/draws on the turn. And if he did have a J or even a 9 there is a strong chance he will call down. I think my strategy in tourneys is to bluff when my hand tells a story that is believable. There really is no hand that we can have that we c/r all in with that isn't also a bluff. I mean maybe AJ. But what do we think he is calling with that we beat with that hand?

+ 1 million

pre- lol sizing. youre min opening A8o in early position into a bunch of 5$ fish who are flat happy play too many hands. if your life is at risk if you dont open here then 3x or make it 222 or something.

flop- the flop is 732 rainbow, i would jump out of my chair and do the tiger woods at the 2005 masters fist pump before i cbet.

turn- you know you have A high 8 kicker no draw right? not a good idea to c/c A high 8 kicker no flush or straight draw high out of position.

river- see turn above. you are still in the same position you were. no need to c/c a second time without improvement and actually less equity that previous turn error. there are plenty of better plans for this hand.

pre - an excellent point george. you're really on your game here. it's definitely one of the relevant options.

flop - oops. cbetting with A high and little chance of further draws ott into a bunch of stations who get wedded to 1pr is prolly not good.

turn - oops. you've missed the fact that he's flushing and semi-bluffing and trying to bust me off a hand that is well ahead of his range, but that's ok so did e1 else.

river - you used to be about the music man. you've changed.

excellent ABC analysis and ty for sharing. now pop off and make me a cup of tea.

cheers Rick. I rly appreciate this and would usually respond with analysis but i'll save my energy for obv reasons. you make some very good points above.

An onslaught of....two