This is my first post here. I ran into this situation at a local weekly tournament and wanted some opinions.


I showed up in level 2 of a weekly $210 tournament and get this as one of my first hands. The chip stacks are approximate but all were about equal and still very early. I had never seen or played with the Villain before this event.

Blinds: 50/100

Seat 1: UTG (8000)
Seat 2: (8000).
Seat 3: Villain (8000).
Seat 4: (8000).
Seat 5: (8000).
Seat 6: (8000).
Seat 7: Button (8000).
Seat 8: SB (8000).
Seat 9: BB HERO (8000). [As,Ac]


UTG folds
UTG +1 folds
Villain raises (400).
Folds all around to HERO.
HERO raises (2000)
Villain calls (1600)

*** FLOP ***: [Ks Kh 6d]
HERO checks
Villain goes all in (6000)



Do you call?

I will post the results after some comments.

Yep

Crazy line! Given that this is a live tournament -- with Villain clearly not constrained by GTO -- I think you have to chat him up a bit. Write your own dialogue, but I'd start with

"That's a big bet!"
"Can you beat quads?"
"Seriously. Because if you can beat quads, I'm folding."
(by now he's either smirking, squirming or has gone mute)
"Can you beat pocket 5s?"

Sweat him a bit. Ask him what to do, etc. Give him a chance to act both strong and weak. Over the next 45 seconds, you'll get plenty of material with which to make a read. He's most likely to respond to your stalling (either by getting angry or being entertained) if he's got trips/boat/quads. If he's bluffing and silently praying for a fold, that's a different story.

You're ahead of a huge chunk of his logical pre-flop range, and if this were online, you probably can't narrow his range enough to do anything but call. But in this case, he's less than a minute away from telling you his cards.

I'm putting his range at 66/33/AK/AA. 50%/30%/10%/10%. Anything else and I guessed wrong.

Even though many people do it, talking like that during tournament play is not legal and I don't do it. Based off the information given, am I correct in you saying you would call? Do people often make calls with 66 preflop when facing a 5x re-raise where you play? Im not sure where the 33 came from, can you elaborate that? Thanks for your thoughts.

First off, I'm not sure why you're raising to 2K pre there. 1300 will certainly get action from more hands that we're way ahead of.

As played, we have to call. If we're folding AA here we're folding too many hands, and our opponent playing a K this way (and even having that many hands in his 3-bet preflop calling range) makes little sense. 66 I guess is a possibility as well but I think the 5x 3-bet probably gets that hand to fold and again, are nut hands going to just jam 6K on the flop?

Well, I surmised that someone who makes it 4x while facing 6 more people will probably call a 5x raise as readily as a 3x, and with AA I want as much value as possible. I was correct.

His post flop shove was pot sized, so I don't think it's unreasonable to do with a K. Also, crafty players know that people usually slow play top hands, so mixing that up is quite common. Lastly, it's hardly the nuts, I have 8-10% to win with any pocket pair, which I was certainly repping.

Are you saying you would never fold AA on that flop? Don't you think that AK fits the story he's telling? Thanks for the input!

Hey, thanks for posting a fascinating hand. Welcome to 2+2, and keep them coming. The hastily typed response below is perhaps a little saucier than it should be, and if so, I apologize. You've offered up something interesting to debate.

I appreciate your high standards! We've got a global community at 2+2, and if those are the well-enforced rules where you play, then that governs. I'm in the western U.S., and for every $210 buy-in tournament that's played under immaculate rules, a lot are either deliberately more informal, or end up being that way. When you said "local weekly tournament," I made the perhaps wrong assumption that this wasn't a strict setting.

I'm struggling with this one. The 4-hand pinpoint range that I offered would have us behind 60% of the time; ahead 30% and chopping 10%. I have no idea what to make of his shove, and if you blindfold me, tape my mouth shut and force me to act, I might reluctantly call. The two of you have built a pretty big pot already. But I'm eager to get more information, any way that's allowable.

You're allowed to look at Villain, no? Any impression based on age, attire, how he/she stacks chips, body language? Does he radiate the barely controlled craziness of DB Cooper? The careful judgment of Chief Justice Roberts? Even if we don't always get those reads right, it's satisfying to be correct 70% of the time or more. Otherwise, playing live without making reads is like playing online in a bus station with a 56k modem.

When Villain shoves, I'm asking "Really?" -- and looking for any extra clues I can find.

No. Getting that frisky with 66 would be a crazy preflop line. But shoving on the flop is not the natural play for any super-premium hand encountering such a dry board. So I'm willing to rebuild Villain's range to include some strange stuff that might want to shove.

It's a proxy for any scruffy hand that should have folded long ago but now wants to run an epic bluff.

1) Raise smaller pre - 1100 would be fine. I might also occasionally flat this pre to trap with only the pre-flop raiser in the pot and us in the BB, but probably too early and not enough reads to do that, so agree with raise.
2) C-Bet flop, why on earth are we checking here when we have the lead and we 3 bet?

As for what we do now, this is heavy on reads. I agree with chatting, but make him sweat. In a vacuum, I'm probably calling this off. A King most likely plays this a bit slower (though note the all in is only 1.5 pot so it's not a massive overbet). The 4x BB raise pre makes me think TT, JJ, QQ that does not want a lot of action, though who knows. I probably sigh call this off.

I like the flop check with current spr.

Your assumption was correct. People talk way too much in live tournaments, all over, and Im one of the few people that enforces that rule here. Im a bit of a ball buster about it too, so I don't want to be a hypocrite and do it when Im on the other end.

Ha, of course we can look at players. And over the course of play, I use more passive powers of observation to fill in any gaps that people usually like to fish for with table talk. This was literally my 3rd hand, though, and although Im a regular at this tournament, I had never seen nor played with this guy before. He had also not played any hands prior. The only read I semi picked up on was when I 3 bet him I thought he may shove right there. He paused, examined his stack, and went with the call. This was the primary reason I put him on AK after his move after the flop, but with only cursory exposure that is a tenuous read at best. Thanks for the input!

1. Im good with my raise and was correct it would induce a call.
2. For precisely that reason. A check, to me, indicates much more strength than a bet. That flop hits many hands that would 4x and those that would 5x that 4x. I would check a K there the majority of the time.

Thanks for your input!

RESULTS:

I folded and the guy showed only 1 card, an Ace.

Later on I pressed him and he claimed it was AK.

In retrospect, im fine with the fold, as it would have been for my whole stack. But I didn't expect the hand to nag at me and now im wishing I had just called it off and ate the $200 if I was wrong, then rebought since it was early.

I put him on AK from the moment I felt he wanted to 4bet me pre but then called. I agree that him checking the flop would be a better play, but shoving is perfectly reasonable as well, as he can assume that I will assume he doesn't have it and it is only about a pot sized bet, plus with a pocket Im still 8% to win.

Did he look at his hand to make sure he was turning over the Ace? Or did he turn over without checking? The reason I ask is that . . .

AA now becomes hugely consistent with every part of the story. (It was the third hand in my four-hand range.) When you make your 5x three-bet before the flop, you've narrowed your range tremendously. If he's a thinking player with AA, he may have decided that you've both got the same hand.

In that case, his decision to try a flop shove is quite shrewd - and is almost certainly planned out ahead of time. On a rainbow board, he can't lose. And he might force a fold out of you if there are scare cards.

Yeah, AK is very much in the mix, too. But in that case, he probably checks his hand to make sure he doesn't turn over the K by accident.

Pulling this back to the math - for this call to be good we have to be right 37% of the time.

Even if I think my opponent's entire calling range here is JJ+ and AK, my opponent only has to be jamming with JJ and QQ 25% of the time for this to be a profitable call assuming he never slowplays AK or KK. Based on experience players at smaller stakes will jam worse pairs in these spots more than 25% of the time. Maybe not 50% of the time, but not 10% of the time.

Still think it's a call.

I don't believe he did, and it made me think the same thing, that's one reason I pressed him later for his kicker. But, who doesn't 4-bet shove to a 5x 3-bet if they have AA? Ill shove that every time.

Also, in rare form, I showed my AA to try and get more info on my fold. I don't think a shrewd player would miss an opportunity to show that not only did he just bluff me, but that we both had AA as well.

If I had just made a great move like that Id want the whole table to see that not only am I getting cards, Im outplaying with them as well. I showed my AA, and he flipped the A right after.

Thanks. Id mostly check there with AK as well.

I think you want to have some bets on this board. The important thing to do with your betting range is to go small with all of it. If you start going too big with your thinner value bets, you'll run into a lot of trips.

AA is a nice hand to check because there aren't really any bad run outs.

As played, I'd probably call.

You seem to be giving conflicting advice here. First suggesting small bets post flop, but then you follow up saying AA is a good checking hand. Did I misunderstand you there?

With a 5k pot, and 6k stack, a standard c-bet will all but commit me. Id rather shove, instead of probing, if I felt I was ahead in that spot.

AA is a good check because it is very unlikely to be outdrawn. KK6r is a very static board meaning equity is unlikely to shift. I don't think you want to have jams here because you don't really put too many hands in an awkward spot from villains perspective. It's also a very expensive price on bluffing.

I'm not sure how many hands I would 3bet pre as a bluff here. My value is going to be pretty tight vs a 4x so I won't be bluffing many hands, but if I did reach this flop then I think it's reasonable to bet small with some AK/QQ/bluffs and check KK/AA.