Hey guys,

Been having an annoying period, a bunch of 10-12th places in large field mtts, on a bit of a downswing and may be starting to loose it, thus thoughts on all - pre, flop, turn would be very much appretiated.

New to the table, have no additional info on both players, orig limper is 50/25 over 14 hands, which is how many hands I was at the table. Stack sizes felt awkward to iso, so I guess its justifiable to limp ip. Flop I felt like a free card wouldnt hurt much though I d/k whether this or betting is better. Turn decided that this makes me look weakest

well.. everything seems pretty bad imo

I dont like limping behind vs 1 weak limper, I would always raise to isol, and take the initiative at the hand w/ a range advantage. w/ that you may barrel flops like this and take it down a lot of the times, if not, you can define ranges way better and will have a better idea of what to do at later streets.

As played, you limp behind and both players check to you otf I dont mind checking behind w/ a gutter and a backdoor FD, but I guess that betting and try to take the pot down there can not be too bad, as the first limper didnt bet you might be able to win the pot there, so I think either way is ok.

The shove ott seems really bad.. unless you have some kinda read that V is going to call you w/ any Ax (which would be an ever worse play by him). Even if V has 2 pair it would be a terrible call, and I dont see many 2 pair combos that V doesnt bet otf. So unless villain is REALLY bad, your overshove of 3k on a 1k pot accomplishes only that V is going to call you when you are dead or on the best scenario chopping and he will fold worst hands.

I'm shoving pre like every time vs a 50/25

Regarding pre, I mean the 50/25 does not really mean much as he may have just completed a BB and called behind in a reasonable spot - its only 14 hands so not really a sample I believe to be something to take into consideration; I do not have a limp stat on him.

On the turn the pot after his bet is 1000 and he has 2400 behind, any amount I raise to will be half of his stack, does it not look too stong, as opposed to just jamming? After me checking the flop behind I cant really have much here myself?

Should we be concerned for BB here having sth like 2 8 or it would have been sensible from his perspective to lead that OTT?

You shouldn't really be playing this pot in the first place like ever with such awkward stacks, so it's pre that needs fixing. If not shove at least iso the limper

I'd make a small iso pre. I think you still have some manuverobility post-flop with those stacks.

As played, otf I'd be betting if both players checked to me.

Ott, I'd be making a standard size raise. Based on the action to this point I don't think villains are going to have too many worse hands that'll call that shove and, well yeah, the BB is still in the hand.

Maybe flat the turn. Our hand isn't that strong. The push seems bad.

Preflop isn't that bad IMO. Don't mind having position 4 ways.

limping behind is weak, isoing is mandatory, shoving is fine, lack of bet otf in a limped pot is horrible, turn shove is questionable as he can't call with much, his range sucks and you're doing the old shove for protection without thinking of his range

agree with all of this.

The problem with isoing is that you almost never take the pot down pre, and you just lose more money when one of the blinds wakes up with a hand. I like limping or shoving, prolly would shove if I didn't have a bad feeling about the limper.

The blinds are going to raise a lot more if you limp than iso. A habitual limper and then a button overlimp is going to look awfully weak and could provoke a light raise or shove.

I am not saying the limp is best here, but it can't be that bad, as pushing or isoing are tricky with stack sizes.

People tend to iso too much, like with a small pp, when the limp behind is usually better; in early position light; or against a reg who is often trapping and/or 3-betting. It isn't as like limpers are going to limp/fold or fold to cbets so much in 2014 that the iso is that profitable.

As discussed, the turn shove is awful. When you are called, you are usually drawing dead.

shove pre vv 50/25 and limper
next hand

Im not convinced that limping pre is bad, imo
limp > shove > iso

Flop I can agree cbet may be better but think its close. They cant really have much and I have wonder runnouts where I can win a larger pot.

Turn can agree it was bad, though cant understand how BB does not lead an 8 high flush here. Annyways, spazzed it

Really?!

I agree that shoving is also a good and +EV play, but I dont see how limping can be better than anything.

You could be limping behind w/ this type of hand of a pp when the players in the hand big stacks, so you have implied odds to hit a big hand and stack off, but it is not the case, we are 20BB deep.

If you dont raise pre, the flop bet is not a cbet. Also you cant really rep much, as if you raise pre you can rep a lot on a lot of flops. You cant really want to play a pot 20BB deep hoping to hit a hand, you will miss the board more than 60% of the times, raising you should be able to take the pot down even when you miss.

If you raise and the blinds 3b you, thats ok, just fold your hand and that's no big deal. Im sure it is going to be +ev in the long run.

When you limp and let the blinds raise light, is our plan going to be to call and play a pot 20BB deep hoping to hit without initiative?! Just seems pretty bad for me...

375 pre and make a hand vs the limper.

Well explained and btw I ship it rather than iso.