Ble, ble, ble, that's all foks!

well said.

pre is perfectly fine and beeing flatted or jammed on is great since you have more decisions to make compared to shoving (which they will play perfectly against, so no real edge here. you just play your cards. even the biggest droolers will fold AJ and call AK)

If you're open shoving AQo here all you're really doing is limiting the total number of hands you can open UTG. Having a r/f range UTG is obv profitable, and how wide your r/f range can be is a function of how wide your r/c range is. The more hands you r/c for value, you the more bluffs you can include in your open range, which means you're getting value from a larger nominal amount of hands. Thus, even if I believed that shove had a higher EV than r/c (which I don't, it's like people have been unlearning how to reshove lately), that wouldn't necessarily be enough to compensate for the adjustments we'd have to make to keep such a strategy profitable.

This isn't to say we should have no shove range, we should, as theoretically that allows us to play a larger nominal amount of hands too. We don't have much of a shove range in this spot (since we should be r/cing so many of the hands would could shove), but we should have some.

Also, Foks, r/fing below 20bbs is beyond standard now because min raise is now the standard open. It was conventional wisdom not to r/f too much on 20bbs back when 3xing was standard because reshoving 20bb on a 3x offered the opener ~1.5 to 1, which is considered to be the point at which FE is maximized relative to the range that a person can reshove unexploitably against a given open range (which is to say that even when we don't know a person's open range, we can can still know the point where the range we can unexploitably reshove against that range is widest relative to the amount of FE it produces). Vs. the min raise it's closer to 14bbs (assuming antes = 1bb).

Interesting. Thanks for the good analysis. I'm still not 100% sold on the 2X logic, because standard for me has always been 2.5X or lower and I still came to the same conclusions some months ago that R/F was still bad under 20BB. And when antes are in play our effective stack is even smaller in theory (forgetting rough estimate off top of my head), so I'm even less inclined to give large chunks of it away in R/F spots. Just my thoughts. And again post flop is a nightmare at these stacks, so I still prefer open shoving against a table of randoms, and even small mistakes post flop can be disastrous amirite?

Edit: Also would you mind just elaborating on highlighted part, I think I'm misunderstanding. Thanks.

Page,
Great post, and admittedly I have not been playing online recently and use a lot of my past experience in my decision making process. The game is always evolving and adjusting appropriately is the key (why the game is going back to limit poker pre flop is beyond me though lol). Anyways I certainly get the point you are trying to make here and don't disagree completely; however I really question how you plan to proceed postflop with hands like this on boards like this especially OOP. Which puts me in the camp of open shoving. Certainly hands like TT+ are going to play much better post flop, but playing AJ+ post on boards like this seems miserable. So instead of having a very polarized shoving range and r/c range, I'd rather just open shove. And I think there is probably some merit to your mention of r/f < 20bb being more reasonable now as you mention the math behind it. I would argue that your UTG opening range here should never be r/f'able, later positions certainly thought.

What would your plans be on this flop Page?

When I say they're unlearning I just mean that, recently, I've encountered a surprising amount of bad play 20bb deep. Types of mistakes I hadn't seen for a while.

More importantly, though, you're thinking about the impact of optimal reshove stack size a bit wrong. It's not a line that divides when it's good and bad to r/f, it's virtually never correct to have no r/f range. If you think about the % of our range that should be made up by r/c and how much by r/f when raising into different stack sizes (assuming optimal play on all sides), somewhere between 14 and 15bbs, r/f% = r/c%. This is the point at which the potential to make a mistake is greatest (for the person being shoved on), and, in a practical sense, it forces a person raising into a 15bb stack to play a tighter range than they could if they were raising only into stacks that had more chips or fewer chips. This doesn't mean that we don't have to adjust our opening ranges when they have 17bbs, or 12bbs, just that the impact of villain's stack size on the size of our opening range decreases the further villain's stack gets from 15bbs (or whatever the optimal reshove stack size is relative to a given open size)

open shove pre is fine. U can also raise/call vs some players.
Check fold flop as played

If you c/f this flop to a guy with 46 vpip, idk, the open doesn't seem great, since you're probably ahead most of the time and even if he did hit some kind of pair you still have like 25% equity with a large % of your stack already in the middle

oh only 11 hands, probably doesn't mean much then

terrible board to think about cbetting OP. c/f as others have said.

cbet the K 8 2 stuff, but you already knew that.

kk thx bye