Originally posted in hs by accident...i figure more appropriate here.

Hero utg 45k
v1 mp 25k
v2. Co Covers

Hero just moved to this table. Both v1 and v2 are good v2 is def on the tricky side both with about 300k live earnings.

Blinds 250/500 with a 50 ante

Hero picks up qq and makes it 1100
V1 3bets to 2500
v2 flats after some deliberation.
Hero 4b it to 8500 (sizing?)

V1 tank folds
v2 flats ?

Flop kc3s7h

Hero bets 10k
V2 flats

Turn is kd

Check/check

Is this a standard check fold on turn vs said villian?

And if it checks back how are we proceeding?

Off the bat i think v2s range is heavily weighted towards aa ak...but bc hes a solid tricky player i always mash my face on these hands.

Do we even like betting flop oop...i feel if we do check flop oop this player owns us most of the time, but this maybe should be irrelevant bc of how narrow his range should be?

All comments appreciated

wow what a horrid spot. I've seen people flat with AA/KK here so much in live donkaments - from mega whales to circuit crushers. Even reading this - and given that you are posting this he had such a hand - that warning bells are going off. Also our vil's are likely to play very straight forward post in these spots given the action.

So I like the 3b - we could go more but I like your sizing overall. I like the cbet sizing and the check ott. Now we only really have a bluff catcher. The K makes his AK less likely so he only really has AA or JJ if he bets otr. I would be hard pressed to think that a "good tricky player" would play JJ this way. It really looks like AA to me and his range is nutted. I would probably fold to a bet otr but the advantages of live poker is taking in their energy when they bet.

So an interesting discussion is should we pot control otf? Could his preflop action indicate that he have AQ <JJ? If a cbet folds worse and he's only continuing with AA AK I might prefer to check back here and hope he stabs with worse ott or otr. Also if we check does this give us the chance to get one street of betting if he he bets the turn and we call and we have the opportunity to check back otr. If we call his lead ott and he continues otr we can surely deduce that his range is pretty nutted here. Also a check back otf might look like a slow play to vil so he may proceed cautiously as well which may give us a chance to get to a cheap showdown since we have position.

As the old adage says "Big pots for big hands and little pots for little hands" could apply here. I might go for pot control right away otf.

another interesting hypothetical preflop is we iso 3b - v1 shoves and v2 back shoves I think we can easily fold here although it wouldn't be easy because We could see AK (v2) versus <JJ (V1. If V2 just flatted V1 I might just call and hope to bink a set and/or he checks down the dry side pot...

When i 4bet i was actually hoping v1 shoved...pretty sure he almost did. He also knew v2 from what i could tell which made me think more warnig bells when he didnt shove.

And pot controlling the flop does seems like a great idea...as we could easily check that flop with ak aa kk. And, he also has no reason to think im raising light here(visual reads etc).

So if we check, and he does fire i think most of his bets are strong coming from a good player.

Af the moment of the hand i really didnt want to relinquish control of the hand by checking...but they may be a reverse affect.

I agree i dont see him playing jj in this way much at all...

this hand afterwards had me ripping whatever hair i had left out lol.

Do we ever find a reason to flat v1s 3bet? I really like iso value raising v1 here hoping he would shove...i dont entirely like taking this oop 3way vs 2 solid players.

V2 range should be JJ+AK unless you and V1 have been 'going at it' for the past several orbits. any unusual dynamic here?

i'd read V2 as AK or JJ- before KK-AA. you've pretty much eliminated JJ- otf and now the second K locks it up. you're beating air. with no reason or history to suggest he can be light here, it's a c/f ott/otr.

I like the turn check and think you have to check the river as well. Your hand is now pretty face up BUT V could also over-think here. IMHO, he has to range us to just about the same hand values as we range him.

Silver no unusual dynamics between us.

And i would have to agree ak is def in there...and i also agree our hand range should be valued the same here.

Curious, does anyone like an alternative line of checkig the flop and leading turn? Maybe without dynamics this line looks fishy and outs our hand face up? But, i think in the right situations it can look very strong.

This is indeed a brain shaker of a hand!

I think after the turn we can safely give him a range of 19 possible hands:
(AA,KK,QQ,JJ and AK (I'd only count JJ about half the time here as I don't think he does it with JJ all the time).

Only 3 of these hands we beat. And this is actually the range I'd put him opn based on pre-flop action as well. There is a very unlikely chance he has QQ of course, but it seems like we are beat. I'd opt for pot control on the flop as he is likely putting us on a similar range here. And if he has the most likely hands in his range he is probably putting us smack dab on QQ. I'd check and see what develops on the flop. If he bets more than half pot Id let it go probably, even though that feels like a catastrophe.

I'd dig deep here and find a reason he might have JJ more often.

Imo v reps AK more than hero
In fact every time I see someone cold flat a 3bet in live midstakes I'm thinking ak + what else
Hero is going to flat the 3bet with ak quite often here. But you 4bet. Qq+ stronger in your range.
You've said the ranges are tight rather than wide on past histrionics, so it's one of those spots i wish I had hair to lose and just shut it down.