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Midstakes MTT Discussion and analysis of midstakes MTT strategy

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Old 03-05-2017, 04:48 PM   #1
DarcyM
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Diamond $550 live MTT

I played a $550 main event at a local casino recently with 3 starting flights 30kstarting stack. Re-buy period had ended and it was the last starting flight.

I played with villain in hand who was seated to my immediate right for about 7 hours. He was in his 50s seemed to have a wider opening range from early position. He would make small 2 or 3 bb isolation raises from later position just to take control of pots at check back often.

I 3b villain I believe four times 3 of which he folded, 1 he called and folded to a cbet. He made a comment how id been "4betting" him often and I told him it's him that should be 4betting me. he responded he'd just stop raising so much. villain got moved and came back in the same seat after about an hour.

level 12. break for day 2 at level 17

6000/1200 + 100a 9 handed
i had 32k villain had approximately 50k. I have a solid image at this point.
villain raises to 3k from utg+1
I 3bet to 8.5k with KK from utg+2 table folds villain looks uncomfortable ask how much behind and calls.

Flop (19900)
Q J 6
villain checks and i check back

Turn(19900)
9
villain bets 11000
i jam for 21800

Thoughts on my check on the flop here. i have just over 1 psb here and i'm not really afraid of many of turns. if he has QQ,JJ, AQ,or AJ the moneys getting in anyway and i'm not giving up much by checking back vs a smaller pp. There's been a ton of focus on balancing ranges and i just wanted some help with this spot.
i think im checking back QQ,JJ, KK and AA with a diamond, some ak combos with a diamond.
id bet all ak combos without a diamond, kk and aa without a diamond
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Old 03-06-2017, 01:24 AM   #2
arcangel092
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Re: $550 live MTT

I don't know why we're 3 betting so small here. I want to go at least 9k if not 10k. If he's been opening light from ep and says he'll stop raising so much because we 3 bet often, then we can assume he's a click stronger now and we should 3 bet bigger because he's more likely to call (being perceivably stronger that is.) Even if that's not the case I want to 3 bet bigger, get value with KK.

The flop check: this is as wet as it gets. I would certainly bet this as we get called by flush draws, top pairs, open enders, etc. The only problem is our SPR is pretty ****ty so we're either betting too big on the flop with not a lot behind, or we're betting really small on the flop and giving the Villain a great price on every turn. So we let's jam flop for a pot sized bet, or go 1/3 pot on flop and jam for roughly 1/3 pot on the turn. It kinda sucks with our stack size, but I don't feel we need any balance here because of this situation. What would he fold? AQ, KQ? Nope. A flush draw? Nope. J10? nope.
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Old 03-06-2017, 02:57 AM   #3
CHICKSDIGLONGBALL
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Re: $550 live MTT

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Originally Posted by arcangel092 View Post
I don't know why we're 3 betting so small here. I want to go at least 9k if not 10k. If he's been opening light from ep and says he'll stop raising so much because we 3 bet often, then we can assume he's a click stronger now and we should 3 bet bigger because he's more likely to call (being perceivably stronger that is.) Even if that's not the case I want to 3 bet bigger, get value with KK.
.
it's 2017 not 2007, 3 bet sizing is dead on imo.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:35 AM   #4
oldsilver
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Re: $550 live MTT

3! less pre, bet flop, jam turn
can flat pre on an active squeezing table, but nothing in OP to suggest that

balanced ranges can include AK on this flop. this is part of your value range.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:49 AM   #5
Harry155
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Re: $550 live MTT

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Originally Posted by oldsilver View Post
3! less pre, bet flop, jam turn
can flat pre on an active squeezing table, but nothing in OP to suggest that

balanced ranges can include AK on this flop. this is part of your value range.
AK isn't part of your value range.... what worse hands are you getting value from? Better to balance by checking your entire range here. It takes a stunning read to fold KK post flop with an spr of 1:1 so flop texture doesn't really matter. Hand was well played imo.
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:36 AM   #6
vyken111
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Re: $550 live MTT

I'm not a fan of changing strategies when you have a big hand. If the plan or action on all your previous hands was to cbet near 100% then you should be cbetting with your monsters, too. Part of what makes the top players so difficult to play against is they follow the exact same lines with a wide range of hands so it's really difficult to know what they are holding. If you are cbetting mediocre/garbage and checking overpairs then you become easier to play against.

I would raise slightly higher pre - 9000-9500. Given dynamics of an old guy getting "tired of your ****" he's probably more likely to call the higher amount. Kings is still 20% to get busted and for you to get knocked out so charge him for trying to draw out on you! There are plenty of hands that he could have hit and not bet - KQ, AJ, small pair... why give him a chance to hit the turn? Especitally if he has a hand like 9s or 10s.

I can already see where this hand is going. You didn't Cbet and he had 9s, hit a set, and you got busted. Or since he's opening EP wide, he had K10 suited, you didn't charge him for the turn, he hit the straight, and you got busted. Cbet the flop!
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Old 03-06-2017, 12:01 PM   #7
Harry155
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Re: $550 live MTT

We're not changing strategies because of the our hand, it's the situation. There's a very low spr (almost 1:1) and we are not folding so if he has a set or a straight good game. All we have to worry about is how to get paid off by worse hands.
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Old 03-06-2017, 03:28 PM   #8
vyken111
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Re: $550 live MTT

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Originally Posted by Harry155 View Post
We're not changing strategies because of the our hand, it's the situation. There's a very low spr (almost 1:1) and we are not folding so if he has a set or a straight good game. All we have to worry about is how to get paid off by worse hands.
You are still giving a free card to a wide range of hands that could improve to beat you. Why do that? There's a ton of chips in the middle. Cbet, take it down if he missed or has one bad pair, and increase your stack by 30%+ from what it was before the hand. I think you're making this way too complicated and fancy. Sometimes you just have to bet the best hand and be happy chipping up.
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:22 PM   #9
oldsilver
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Re: $550 live MTT

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Originally Posted by Harry155 View Post
AK isn't part of your value range.... what worse hands are you getting value from? Better to balance by checking your entire range here. It takes a stunning read to fold KK post flop with an spr of 1:1 so flop texture doesn't really matter. Hand was well played imo.
Yes my post was poorly worded, I meant that this hand (KK) is part of your value range, AK is also a shove, so is any other hand that gets to this flop with an spr of 1. Shoving your entire range here is std.
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Old 03-06-2017, 05:44 PM   #10
scheier
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Re: $550 live MTT

I'm with oldsilver here.
In any case, giving a free card on this flop is pretty much a disaster against villain's range.
We're getting the money in anyways that's true.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:20 PM   #11
DarcyM
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Re: $550 live MTT

thanks for the input everyone. I realize if I had adjusted my 3b size this spot wouldn't have been as difficult since when I could make a cbet 1/3 pot on dry flops, it might look like i can still fold, if i 3b less. Table was full of calling stations and only 1 legitimate 3b shoving stack behind so calling to induce was out of the question.

villain had A10o

Last edited by DarcyM; 03-06-2017 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:41 PM   #12
DarcyM
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Re: $550 live MTT

my reasons for giving a free card are as follows:
-the awkward stack to pot ratio
-throughout the day i had been checking backs on flops both as a trap and when giving up so i thought id give him the option to bet the turn
-i thought he was calling me with some sort of aq-a9 or jj-88
-i block some face card combos he couldve decided to flat with
-if he has QJ,JJ, AQ,or AJ the moneys getting in anyway and i'm not giving up much by checking back vs a smaller pp

Last edited by DarcyM; 03-06-2017 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:27 PM   #13
daviid
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Re: $550 live MTT

nh i like it

dont rly see the issue with checking back flop. looks pretty std to me, our hand doesn't rly need as much protection as some people itt think.
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:47 PM   #14
oldsilver
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Re: $550 live MTT

If we're checking back our entire range are we also giving up AK to any lead on brick turns?
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Old 03-07-2017, 10:46 AM   #15
Harry155
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Re: $550 live MTT

I think so. It's annoying when you invest 1/4 of your stack and whiff the flop completely but he'll have us beat so often here when we have ace high that it makes no sense to continue.
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Old 03-07-2017, 12:17 PM   #16
scheier
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Re: $550 live MTT

So is the suggestion to check our entire range on this flop?
Seems very "contemporary", but I don't think I agree with the arguments.
What hands and on what turn card is villain getting it in unimproved on the turn where he wouldn't have got it in on the flop? Hands with the ace of diamond but only one diamond could try to semi-bluff if a third diamond hits the turn I guess. But apart from AdQx and AdJx I don't see many hands that would call preflop. And I only see AJ folding to our flop bet, if it does.
A combo-draw like the one that happened in the actual hand? I am not sure we are gaining much by letting villain draw with the odds (or almost the odds). Survival is important. A scenario like the one that happened to OP is almost the best case scenario for a flop check, because the draw villain got was pretty bad, and OP doesn't really seem happy about the results...
I don't know, I'm just rambling because I want to get behind the check argument, but can't resolve myself to it.
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Old 03-08-2017, 07:51 AM   #17
arcangel092
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Re: $550 live MTT

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarcyM View Post
my reasons for giving a free card are as follows:
-the awkward stack to pot ratio
-throughout the day i had been checking backs on flops both as a trap and when giving up so i thought id give him the option to bet the turn
-i thought he was calling me with some sort of aq-a9 or jj-88
-i block some face card combos he couldve decided to flat with
-if he has QJ,JJ, AQ,or AJ the moneys getting in anyway and i'm not giving up much by checking back vs a smaller pp
Let's think about what will call your all in that's worse: Any Q, likely all flush draws, maybe an open ender. The only way you're getting value from worse pairs is by checking the flop, but once you go all in a J is probably not calling here. If he has A10 or A9 you're giving him outs to hit an A, which is bad. If he hits a 10 or a 9, he's not calling your all in (maybe, just maybe he bets, but not likely either). A 10 or a 9 also get free cards for sets. I think the check back, over time, lets more hands get there than it does secure value from worse. You are putting your strong hand, on a wet board, in a compromising position.

If you 3 bet more btw you set up a better SPR on the flop for a jam.
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Old 03-09-2017, 01:57 AM   #18
nomalice
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Re: $550 live MTT

im in x-back-is-a-disaster camp

preflop, i would 3bet 8k or 9-10k. probably 8k, so i could bet flop smallish and jam turn. if 10k, just shove board this wet

one point is missed here, all are talking about maximizing our profits,getting more chips,balancing our range,but isnt tournament life important ? if it was online tournament and we're playing 30+ a day,sure. but variance is much bigger in lives,and i think ppl make massive mistakes when trying to slowplay hands on boards like this on live tournaments for whatsoever reasons.

i mean, its not 662 rainbow board, we can for sure get called with a lot of weaker hands, even more likely when villain is in his 50s and we harrased him in the past. we have a chance to add 2/3 to our stack with shoving IF HE FOLDS, potentially more if he calls because shove could look bluffy in villains eyes causing him to call lighter maybe or whatever.

so i believe overall best strategy in this spot is probably

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsilver View Post
Shoving your entire range
minus some no equity hands. i think balancing with this spr is quite impossible actually and OP shouldn't trouble himself a lot with that in these kind of spots. Iif I shove, I wouldnt be mad if he folds, I just got my stack highly improved. Also, I wont feel ecstatic if he calls with a flushdraw altough I would like him to. I aint for sure letting him freerolling turns for any reasons.

Last edited by nomalice; 03-09-2017 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 03-09-2017, 05:58 AM   #19
Harry155
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Re: $550 live MTT

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Originally Posted by nomalice View Post
minus some no equity hands. i think balancing with this spr is quite impossible actually and OP shouldn't trouble himself a lot with that in these kind of spots. Iif I shove, I wouldnt be mad if he folds, I just got my stack highly improved. Also, I wont feel ecstatic if he calls with a flushdraw altough I would like him to. I aint for sure letting him freerolling turns for any reasons.
We 3 bet the utg open from utg +1 and he flats leaving an spr of 1:1.... what flush draws does he have?
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Old 03-09-2017, 12:27 PM   #20
nomalice
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Re: $550 live MTT

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Originally Posted by Harry155 View Post
We 3 bet the utg open from utg +1 and he flats leaving an spr of 1:1.... what flush draws does he have?
thats not the point.
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Old 03-16-2017, 04:30 PM   #21
SetSetter
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Re: $550 live MTT

My instinct (given the dynamic with this particular vill) would be a small/tiny cbet because it looks fishy (like an AK whiff, or it looks like we are bullying him) and gives the illusion of fold equity for vill to maybe jam Qx/Jx/FD/OESD. A chunk of these dominated hands may find hero-folds if we jam flop or turn.

Even if vill flats our small cbet is still accomplishes a few things: we keep the lead heading into the turn (and can x-behind or jam as we choose OTT), we set up a more natural-looking jam size for turn or river, and we also charge draws a little bit as opposed to giving a free card.

I agree that our hand doesn't need much protecting OTF, but I think our best overall EV GII spot is OTF as opposed to OTT. The problem I see with waiting to the turn to GII is that vill may no longer GII with draws if the turn bricks, but they probably GII with draws OTF. So we want to isolate against a weaker and more drawish GII range OTF. Checking the flop really only seems to strengthen vill's GII range by simultaneously removing draws while also freely allowing them to pickup more GII hands that beat us.
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