$350 Mid-Stakes Poker Tour Potawatomi Casino Milwaukee WI-

Very late second level. I've folded about 20 of 22 hands, haven't seen a showdown or made a raise or bet. The play had been reasonably decent to this point, this was about the first multi-way limped pot. I think I would usually call OTB here, but the mp limpers and utg grandma seemed like some of the weaker players at the table, and I've certainly done nothing to look like a loose player. I had seen villain limp from a couple different positions and open once from EP; essentially no reads. 18k effective.

Blinds 75/150

Villain (60ish lady) utg: limps
mp1: calls
mp2: calls
CO: calls
Hero OTB 89: raises to 775

mp1 & 2 both fold, utg and CO call- pot 2550

flop J48

utg:check
Co:check
Hero: bets 1675

utg calls CO folds- pot 5900

Turn 3

Utg donks 1k

Hero?

Judging from the play, I'd say granny is holding a pp up to TT, including 44, or a J with weak suited kicker, not ruling out a better flush draw than yours. I'd prolly call and reevaluate river but a r/f could also be a good line as it may push out weak J's and better drawing hands.

all in

not a fan of pre or flop action

Prob pitch pre, but think your sizing is expl okish, cause we don't really have a range that plays to this sizing, where I think the top of our range wants to go bigger. As played, check the flop. Not sure if I want to call, or go ~5700 ott

So it sounds like everyone wants to play this hand passively, in position, from start to finish.

And raising 5xish pre doesn't rep the top of my range?

If I chose to raise pre, I would go bigger vs 4 limpers, something like 7BB seems OK (the good ol' 3BB + 1BB per limper rule of thumb seems fine this deep and early).
In these kind of live tournaments, you're not getting rid of many players with this sizing, which is why other posters suggest that it doesn't rep the top of your range (don't wanna play AA multi-way).
In general, I prefer the passive line pre with these kinds of hands and this setup, but can't fault you for having a decent amount of raises here!

As played, I call turn. I could see a very small raise to get the initiative back, but I don't think we have a lot of fold equity with a decent-sized raise against this villain. We would need to empty the clip on any river card for the turn raise to have any kind of impact. But I'm not sure we want to do that just yet...

All in? Lolz. Why do we want to do anything but call? Are we getting her to fold a J or better?

old grandma is the type to fold a J for her tourney life, and the small bet sizing is generally not strength

better than a J? incredibly hard to have combination-wise

also possible to get a call from some worse draws

pitch pre? you must have misread. call > bomb > this raise imo

AmpeFund you seem to post a lot here but on 50% of your posts I find myself thinking WTF are you talking about

Saying that I think preflop raise sizing here should theoretically be bigger if we are iso'ing. With this exact holding and other midSCs, as played sizing could be ok, because when we build a pot in position vs opponents who make mistakes in raised pots, obv we do better. Im saying exploitative, because optimal or balanced sizing would be how our entire iso-range should play best.
Sure I guess limp along pre otb and hope to gin a flop, and possibly profit. Just see it as a leak longterm, and for me personally, I have enough leaks in other areas, where if I can limit them, where I see them, I do

pre is w/e. call sometimes, raise sometimes. never folding.

call turn. river a flush. raise.

This I think. We're getting such a great price here and with 14/15k behind there's no point passing up that price for a high variance play against an unknown/unpredictable player.

why the fk would we raise the turn

900 pre or just call if you want to reduce variance

x flop

Bc her stronger hands arent interested to give us rivet card cheap thus vs weaker blockbet we can turn weak 8x+FD in 2 streets bluff.
Theoretically we certainly overdoing it raising turn but guess it can be ok getting additional info.

Can't see raising turn being more profitable than just calling. Hoping a fish folds top pair, no thanks, I'll take my killer odds to hit a flush/two pair/trips or get a cheap showdown for my pair. Old lady's bet is much more exploitable because of the price she gives us to realize our equity than the fold equity from the perceived weakness of her range (which, from guesses at her hand, we are not all that confident she is that weak here).

Talk of folding pre, wow. Poker's not dead guys. I mean, I guess if you have no comprehension of pot odds and position, and have no confidence in your postflop play, fold preflop. Probably calling mostly but raise is fine, I like Ralph's sizing.

Could you enlighten?

We have to call 150 with pot of 800, we are getting better than 5:1. Great odds preflop when you are 100bbs+ deep. We have the best position, and postflop will get to have all the information of our opponents acting before us. More value there. Our hand is excellent for a multiway pot, has the robust equity we like to play this deep (our equity tends to remain the same even when our opponent's hand ranges get stronger on later streets).

Yeah yeah getting a flush and getting tons of action is awkward, but that's rare and it's overrated how much that occurs (and it's not necessarily that hard to fold given certain actions).

Basically, the pot odds + position are excellent here and we have a really great hand for a 4+way pot, we have plenty of stack depth to realize implied odds, it's just a slam dunk home run hole in one profitable play that I don't think folding should ever be considered. Obviously, I feel strongly here for not folding, but I would be interested to hear your reasons for folding.

Obvious never fold pre...might raise sometimes ...little bigger sizing 1kish
.She not hold a J there she is way stronger then that.The tiny 1K donkbet is confusing because it makes no sence and i would take those great pot odds and just call in this situation.I would play this way more agresive in some situations but not here.She gone show a set a huge % of the time.

I understand traditional thinking is 'its the kinda hand you wanna see a flop with' and multiway etc etc. Part of the strength of playing SCs is their board coverage in raised pots vs somewhat narrow or even polarized ranges, and depending on our initiative ip or oop.
Can obv gin a flop, but can also use the board covg or lack thereof to bluff and semibluff effectively. I think that strength is severely diminished in these multiway limped pots where we find ourselves dominated and blocked a lot, and a hand like 98 runs into this often, and range assessment is pretty nil
But w/e, dont think this is a big ev event in either direction for 1bb, but def doesnt feel like an edge we can consistently, and profitably exploit.

Why the **** would you ever make it MORE pre?

I like (re)raising with SCs in late position as it balances my (3-)betting range with monsters and they flop well if flatted. Add position and I think its a +EV play - would indeed bet a bit bigger pre since if utg calls the other limpers are priced in to call too and now you're just building a big pot.

These are the exact kind of hands I love playing at the start of these (buy in range) tournaments. I am never folding this to 4 limpers in front of me especially when I have position. I am happily taking a cheap flop and hoping to hit big. Im not worried about balancing my range here as these players probably are not even thinking about that. At higher stakes with more thinking opponents, then yea.

In my experience at these stakes/circuits raising just causes the first limper to call which gets the water fall effect going and everyone else calls (and you always hear some guy say "I guess I have to call, Im getting the odds" as he shrugs his shoulders and splashes his chips in). Then you have a bloated pot with a hand that has to strike gold against multiple people who will call off with middle pair all the way to the river more often than not.

With that being said, if I decided to raise it would be around 1100-1300 or so. Thats what I would do with the top of my range here. And I will do this if I see people limp folding or I am confident I can isolate one limper in front.

As played I am checking the flop and hoping to get to showdown cheaply. This board hits a limp call range pretty hard. Any broadway (xJ), suited trash or small pocket pair or small pair (Ax) is certainly in that range and I doubt they are folding to a c-bet.

I think the turn bet is an easy call. G-Ma prob has Jx, some weak pair or a draw of some kind. Regardless you are getting amazing odds with a hand that can improve and has equity you don't want to lose. Make her make a mistake here and hopefully you get a favorable river card. If not, see what the odds are on the river if she bets and go from there.