Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - 500/1,000 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): 81,633
BB: 60,085 (VPIP: 7.69, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 26)
UTG: 21,891 (VPIP: 17.39, PFR: 15.22, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 46)
UTG+1: 58,043 (VPIP: 22.41, PFR: 17.24, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 59)
MP: 33,917 (VPIP: 20.56, PFR: 11.67, 3Bet Preflop: 4.82, Hands: 180)
MP+1: 31,915
CO: 58,398 (VPIP: 18.75, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 66)
BTN: 12,342 (VPIP: 7.89, PFR: 2.63, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 38)

8 players post ante of 100, Hero posts SB 500, BB posts BB 1,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 2,300) Hero has Q K

fold, fold, MP raises to 2,000, MP+1 calls 2,000, fold, fold, Hero calls 1,500, fold

Flop: (7,800, 3 players) Q J 3
Hero checks, MP checks, MP+1 bets 3,900, Hero calls 3,900, MP calls 3,900

Turn: (19,500, 3 players) 5
Hero checks, MP checks, MP+1 bets 9,750, Hero?

Not really worried about MP. Are we okay with how I got to this spot? Was it too passive? Should I just be 3-betting with this hand because I block monsters and we're so close to the bubble? As played, is this a fold?

It's a slightly tougher spot; mainly cause of the other caller makes it less likely that the the turn bettor is bluffing in this spot. At the same time it's difficult to find that many hands that beat you. JJ+ has to be discounted somewhat to 3 bet preflop. 33 has to be discounted somewhat towards folding preflop. The combos of QJss and AQ combos(possibly 3bet some % as well) are the main hands that beat you in this spot.

You don't mention any reads on the player that is betting but if they have any tendency to button click or a high aggression factor I'm check raising and getting it in on this turn. That's probably my default play regardless although I'm not as thrilled about it with the other player in this pot as I do think it makes it less likely that villain bluffs the turn in this spot. It's also difficult to find many hands worse than yours that they'd consider value betting with on the turn cause not many Qx combos worse in most standard cold call ranges in this spot.

As for preflop. 3betting to 7K with plans to get it in against one all in is fine with the right reads. I wouldn't 3bet to fold though. It's more of a 3bet for value and then a call off based on your odds against a standard 4bet get it in range off this stack depth. Most of the value in the 3bet comes from picking up the pot preflop. Flatting though seems fine as well and better than folding. Especially considering the tight BB off a small sample.

Just have to say i disagree w/ everything you say (almost everything )
I don´t think we can discount JJ and 33 (just because we don´t know nothing about V, also bad spot to go broke w/ JJ, 3 from the money if we´re in MP1 shoes)
Also, pre is pretty standard and i like it (we can def mixing up w/ some 3bets, but prefer a flat esp vs 2 players and on the bubble)
3bet/c is pretty ambitious also, and i would hate to 3bet/f a nh hand like this.
Turn has to be a fold (x/raising is just lolbad), but i´m inclined to call again and see a river (we have to have a range that calls 2 streets and folds third)

discounting does not mean complete removal of those combos/hands. If we used population tendencies those hands would be discounted at some frequency on average. If you want give him 100% of all JJ, 33, and AQ combos fine. Then of course we can give the villain alot more value hands and if we add in QQ+ traps a fair bit more.

As for turn check raising being LoL. The villain only started the hand with 30BB effective and 15BBs are in the middle already. When we check/call and check call this semi dry texture OOP three way after cold calling from the SB preflop what do you think our range looks like in this spot? It's heavily weighted to Qx whether it be KQ or AQ. If we feel we have enough equity in the hand on the turn we should just put it in on the turn. Villain is going to play almost perfectly on all rivers while if they are overly aggro in this turn spot they are liable to compound errors on the turn when facing a check raise. If your plan is to check/call turn and check/fold river fine. I'd agree that you are not often getting bluffed on the river. At the same time the reasons for calling the turn in the first place are because we feel the villain has enough bluffs and our equity in the pot is good enough to call the turn so I'd rather charge those "semi bluffs" on the turn than let them play perfectly and check back unimproved on the river.

Just to clarify. If you check call the turn there is only ~40% pot size bet left on the river. I don't see how check/raising is LoL bad in that spot and check/call turn to check/fold river is the much better play.

Those two points don't add up. Either you feel the player is wide enough on turn to continue or you feel you don't have enough equity to call the turn.

agree with outplayu, checkraising turn is rly bad obv. "charging semi bluffs" ott by checkraising KQ here is a pretty illogical approach when our hand needs little to no protection and villain will just b/f his (semi-)bluffs ott. im rly struggling to find a better hand we could get to the turn with given our line so i think we basically have to see a river and fold rarely.

So is the villain bluffing his semi bluffs on the river? I don't get it. OutplayU sounded like he is check/calling the turn and then check/folding unimproved to a 40% size pot river shove. So I assumed he felt they aren't bluffing or betting worse on the river cause folding our hand on the river would be absurd considering the the price and what you mention; it being close to the top of our range.

That's why I'm arguing that check/shove turn isn't bad if you feel you have enough equity in this spot. I feel most villains are more likely to call it off bad with their semi bluffs and if they are never bluffing their semi bluffs when unimproved on the river how is letting them realize that equity for their set price better than folding them off of it on the turn? if we are always calling the river anyway and they are always betting their better value?

Either you feel they are bluffing enough on turn and river to make calling our hand on the turn profitable or they are not off this stack depth.

While our hand doesn't need much protection against hands it beats it also rarely improves to beat something that it wasn't already beating on the turn. so either we have enough equity on the turn against our villains range or we don't in this spot.

If you feel most villains are going to bluff off their stack on a 40% pot size rive bluff while they are likely to fold to our check/shove on the turn then check/call check call is better.

It's amazing to me that you guys can somehow find check/shove terrible at this stack depth and rather check/call check/decide a superior line.

Especially when our range for check/(not folding) the turn is arguably very defined to only a few hands based on the preflop->postflop action at this stack depth.

I said the right/correct play is to fold, but calling can't be bad either since most people just don't bluff river that much and give up (either vbet thin)
If we shove and V calls we're ****ed by his calling range.


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Don't like the stationy line. Would rather c/r smallish otf w the bdd's, then c/c 2 streets mway like this. Turn is whatever now.

To see where you at bro?
I expected a better response from you tbh.


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Cmon man..now I think your starting to troll. No, not to see where Im at, lol
Whats our pre flatting range in this spot, whats the flatters range..and how are they affecting this board. Does he have a 3b shove range here? What do a lot of turns do for our range? How does our position affect our ev of playing this hand. Don't think flatting the flop is bad.

Line is pretty standard. Preflop we're not really 3-betting KQs for value so if we're bluffing we should be picking hands that aren't good enough to call but have potential.

Flop call is fine. If we check-raise in this spot what worse hands call?

Turn is tough because it's really hard to envision hands MP+1 realistically has that we beat. I guess we're probably getting right price to call on grounds that our opponent maybe be overvaluing something like QT or be aggressively playing some backdoor flush or straight draws this way, but based on the two streets of betting plus a third player behind I can almost advocate a fold here.

I do think that based on stack depth this really is a jam/fold spot on turn as I'm not sure what good check/calling turn does as we're just going to be in the same awkward spot more often than not.

The arguments that were made for a turn check/raise are just better explained in this thread than those in favor of check/call turn - check/fold river.

I think what comes into play here is a read on the opponent's tendencies/capacity to continue betting his semi-bluffing range on the river. Because we are pretty committed on the river once we call turn. But indeed, if we think villain will almost never continue with his bluffs on the river, then we obviously need to just call turn (and fold river indeed). But if we think villain will continue most of his bluffs and semi-bluffs, we need to either check/call most rivers after calling turn or just shove this turn indeed in order to charge the draws.

But at the end of the day, I think most of the posters would actually agree that turn should actually be folded.

PS: Most posters seem to agree on OP's hypothesis that we are not worried about MP. To be honest, I would be. What range do we assign to MP once he calls flop after this action? KT and T9s only? Or do we think he calls with some jacks and some bad queens (unlikely if you ask me)? Or does he have some slow-played monsters in there? Maybe some gutshots with backdoor nut flush draws? I dunno, I'm curious how people range MP after preflop and flop action.

You should be cautious entering pot vs 20/11 with such hands which are dominated by tight OR range.

I still will be worried about OR after he cbet 3way and check blank turn card with slightly more than PSB behind.

Ott its hard to imagine MP+1 could create a great bluffing spot after "floating" flop 3way OOrP.

Readless I would fold turn.

Agree !