Lately I've been having trouble with deciding whether to r/f here or just open ship in spots like this, with hands of similar strength.

No reads on the sb and bb as I played this hudless (I guess hud stats are pretty helpful in these spots) and hand happened a while ago so can't remember other reads.

I'd guess a general guideline in spots like this is to r/f vs fish in the blinds and open jam vs regs in the blinds/or one reg in the bb right?

I don't like raise/folding bc it sucks when the bb flats and we whiff flop and then have to cb/fold.

If r/f here is preferred, how much shorter of a stack would you consider r/f with if in this spot?

I don't like it with the SB being so deep. I'd fold.

I would r/f until I was down to about 12 BBS, at which point I would jam.

r/f?

Id shove.
r/c vs aggros is also viable as 2nd choice option.

R/f. Agree with most of your OP but...

Your thoughts for not liking to r/f because we have to cbet/fold sometimes are kind of flawed though because we're not *too often going to be facing a shove if we bet. If we're decent we can play this profitably post vs your average random, even if we have to b/f some flops.

87s has near to 40% equity vs decent range of call + fe = easy snap shove and gl

40% equity against a 50% range, in which case you are getting called 75% of the time.

Pushing 15xBB with nut 8 high is a spew.

R/f may be OK against some opponents, but I would prefer to fold with the bigger stacks in the blinds.

lol I thought we have 77.

didn't see the 8ball?

vs 22+, a2o+,a2s+,k9o+,k9s+,q9o+,q9s+ you are @40%
and this is 30%

I agree with you that it's spewy but I don't think your math is right here. The SB's calling range will be tighter than the BB, so the jam would get through more than 25% of the time, even if BB calling range is 50%.

I jam here without giving it a second thought specially if I haven't shoved recently.
I will fold it if I had shoved 2 times this orbit already or if I was seen shoving something that looked weak recently.

At this stage of the tourney I feel like its a leak to not have reads on the blinds, obv depends on how many hands but some of your statements support it being an issue.
I think you would r/f vs tight players, and shove vs good players. Whether they are 'fish' or 'regs' is not always the accurate tell we are looking for.


This tells me you are adverse to playing postflop (esp since 87s is a great hand to cbet a wide range of flops with). So you are missing out on experience in these spots, as well as missing many opportunities to build notes and reads on your opponents. This also effects your own ability to play postflop oop.

i will consider it down to > 2bbs.

Shoving is going to be +ev I would think since it in the nash eq. range and players have no reason to call you wider and without reads will likely call you tighter.

If we compare min raising vs shoving in a vaccum we can find a few hands that perform better as a shove than a min raise. The are often the middle hands like JTo, QTs, and maybe a hand like 87s. So I think its good instinct to consider shoving rather than min opening, but we also have to consider our overall strategy and make sure its only exploitable when we choose it to be.

This is a shove for me. 16% of your stack in the middle

yep ditto

i thought i was agreeing with washellietrunk for a minute, but then i see he only got it right by accident

rofl V-Del. i'm in tears.

shove is ok, but r/c-ing 8-high is bad. wtf VDS_champ?

MARCH oF DISAGREERS itt.
"he`s too rude, too rude.... "
hahaha

GL!
Better ask your parents to talk with me, maybe it will help....

furreal?

appreciate all the replies but I guess there isn't really a general consensus on the correct play here lol

shoving will show profit. often min raising will show profit vs either tight 3betting ranges or vs shorter stacks.

When we are somewhat short but the blinds are still 3bet/fold, if they are deep its better to shove to keep their 3betting ranges tighter.

But thats all in a vacuum and it depends on what you want to do with your entire range vs the responses each villain will give. You don't want to shove the bottom of your range if villain knows you are min raising the top of your range.

I'd recommend you shove almost all your opening hands here (maybe not the top), until you find someone to sit down with an icm calculator and compare min raise strategies vs shoving strategy vs different types of opponents in the blinds.

I honestly think this question has arisen because of your unwanting to cbet/fold when flatted. Its really not a mathematical reason not to min, if anything you would still min open and just check back the flop.

[QUOTE=Adyo;40004829]shoving will show profit. [QUOTE] Yes, when you view the hand in isolation but there may still be better spots within the next couple of orbits (either pre-flop or post-flop) to get it in.

In the future they have a saying 'there is no time like the present.'

(I'm assuming this is not the FT)

shove is bad if we talk balance

shove is balanced if we balance; I don't expect it to become bad from talking about balance.