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2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot 2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot

09-27-2016 , 10:40 AM
    Poker Stars, $45.45 Buy-in (2,500/5,000 blinds, 625 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

    SB: 228,514 (45.7 bb)
    BB: 63,912 (12.8 bb)
    UTG+1: 418,104 (83.6 bb)
    UTG+2: 194,827 (39 bb)
    MP1: 163,365 (32.7 bb)
    MP2: 60,055 (12 bb)
    Hero (MP3): 413,725 (82.7 bb)
    CO: 52,011 (10.4 bb)
    BTN: 206,312 (41.3 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A 3
    UTG+1 raises to 10,000, 3 folds, Hero raises to 28,875, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls 18,875

    Flop: (70,875) 5 J K (2 players)
    UTG+1 checks, Hero bets 28,350, UTG+1 folds



      Poker Stars, $45.45 Buy-in (3,000/6,000 blinds, 750 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (SB): 521,706 (87 bb)
      BB: 117,780 (19.6 bb)
      UTG+1: 324,369 (54.1 bb)
      UTG+2: 401,660 (66.9 bb)
      MP1: 24,037 (4 bb)
      MP2: 222,737 (37.1 bb)
      MP3: 176,419 (29.4 bb)
      CO: 51,662 (8.6 bb)
      BTN: 98,110 (16.4 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with J K
      3 folds, MP2 raises to 12,000, 3 folds, Hero raises to 36,000, BB folds, MP2 calls 24,000

      Flop: (84,750) 3 A Q (2 players)
      Hero bets 33,900, MP2 calls 33,900

      Turn: (152,550) J (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP2 checks

      River: (152,550) 9 (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP2 bets 60,000, Hero folds



      We had 2 players who were sitting out on our table. In both hands one of them was on the big blind.
      Also, the same guy was the OR in both of these hands. He wasn't tight for sure, something like ~~30/20.
      I think hand #1 is fine, we are in position and no one besides me was unusually active on this table. I'm pretty confident about this 3bet, not so sure about the flop but I think I should stab it anyway.

      In the second hand though, now I'm thinking I should just call preflop instead of making the pot bigger with a mediocre hand when I'm OOP, but as played, I think I gotta stab again (maybe should make it less than 30k tho; not sure if check/calling makes sense to me) - got some good cards to come on the turn, his opening range from MP is wide etc.
      I guess I couldn't play turn & river differently on those cards.
      Your thoughts?
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-27-2016 , 11:12 AM
      Hand 1 is bad hand selection. Just fold pre and use more natural hands to 3bet bluff below hands that usually flat. As played, cbet is probably OK, but I'd be more inclined to delay and barrel.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-27-2016 , 11:16 AM
      Hand 2, I think should be a flat pre. Again, I don't know what your 3bet bluff range looks like here. The one line that absolutely sucks as the 3bettor is the one you took. That line is garbage and the in position player probably wins like 98% of the time. I'd say barrel off and put pressure on Qx weak Ax, or bet turn and check river if you clearly have better bluffs to fire off.

      One thing you should work on is clearly knowing your range at any point in a hand, it makes decision making logical and takes out a lot of guesswork.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 06:04 AM
      How bad am I for folding both hands preflop? From 1(bad) to 10(bad. But there is still hope).
      As played 1),is ok. 2) I would not cbet cuz you block combos he would fold. Might double barrel if I cbet this since his peeling range should be Ax heavy so its a decent scarecard/gains us equity/blocker.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 07:05 AM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by furo
      How bad am I for folding both hands preflop? From 1(bad) to 10(bad. But there is still hope).
      As played 1),is ok. 2) I would not cbet cuz you block combos he would fold. Might double barrel if I cbet this since his peeling range should be Ax heavy so its a decent scarecard/gains us equity/blocker.
      Folding the 2nd suggests to me that you have some post ante based leaks from the SB.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 07:47 AM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by gregz41
      Hand 1 is bad hand selection. Just fold pre and use more natural hands to 3bet bluff below hands that usually flat. As played, cbet is probably OK, but I'd be more inclined to delay and barrel.
      I appreciate your opinion, but I think I don't understand. Why shouldn't I 3bet this hand if 1) we don't want to flat it 2) it's a hand from the top of our folding range 3) it has a blocker 4) bb is sitting out and the whole table is pretty passive?

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by gregz41
      Hand 2, I think should be a flat pre. Again, I don't know what your 3bet bluff range looks like here. The one line that absolutely sucks as the 3bettor is the one you took. That line is garbage and the in position player probably wins like 98% of the time. I'd say barrel off and put pressure on Qx weak Ax, or bet turn and check river if you clearly have better bluffs to fire off.

      One thing you should work on is clearly knowing your range at any point in a hand, it makes decision making logical and takes out a lot of guesswork.
      I tend to 3bet hands which are bad to play OOP from SB. I would 100% call if this hand was suited, but perhaps I should call anyway when I'm sure I'll see the flop.

      V was loose and knew that I was very aggressive so I don't think if he'd fold weak ace to 2nd barrel and I don't really want to fire 3 barrels in a 3b pot, had a decent stack so losing majority of it costs more than gaining some or even doubling up profits.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by furo
      How bad am I for folding both hands preflop? From 1(bad) to 10(bad. But there is still hope).
      As played 1),is ok. 2) I would not cbet cuz you block combos he would fold. Might double barrel if I cbet this since his peeling range should be Ax heavy so its a decent scarecard/gains us equity/blocker.
      Yup, still not sure about postflop play in #2 but I'm pretty sure fold isn't an option if OR is loose preflop + BB is sitting out.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 08:46 AM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by gregz41
      Hand 2, I think should be a flat pre. Again, I don't know what your 3bet bluff range looks like here. The one line that absolutely sucks as the 3bettor is the one you took. That line is garbage and the in position player probably wins like 98% of the time. I'd say barrel off and put pressure on Qx weak Ax, or bet turn and check river if you clearly have better bluffs to fire off.

      One thing you should work on is clearly knowing your range at any point in a hand, it makes decision making logical and takes out a lot of guesswork.
      KJo flat in the SB is bad IMO, I'd much rather be 3 bet/folding this hand.

      OP, I like the line taken in both hands, if anything I think maybe the sizing of the 3 bet in hand 2 is a little big.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 09:00 AM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Marecki
      I appreciate your opinion, but I think I don't understand. Why shouldn't I 3bet this hand if 1) we don't want to flat it 2) it's a hand from the top of our folding range 3) it has a blocker 4) bb is sitting out and the whole table is pretty passive?
      Points 1, 3 and 4 are valid reasons to be 3betting as a bluff. My issue is with 2. This hand is really far away from even a loose but still good flat range. Let's say that we 3bet something like AJo, KQo, A2-A5s, Q9s, K9s and 87s as bluffs. If you wanted more, you'd choose a lot of stuff before getting as far down as A3o. If you include everything all the way down to A3o, then you'll simply be 3bet bluffing way too much.

      I'm on board for getting in more bluffs, but think this is too much even with the BB sitting out.


      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Marecki

      I tend to 3bet hands which are bad to play OOP from SB. I would 100% call if this hand was suited, but perhaps I should call anyway when I'm sure I'll see the flop.

      V was loose and knew that I was very aggressive so I don't think if he'd fold weak ace to 2nd barrel and I don't really want to fire 3 barrels in a 3b pot, had a decent stack so losing majority of it costs more than gaining some or even doubling up profits.
      I think the ante makes flatting fine from the SB. I dislike the logic that you don't want to barrel off. You're going to need some bluffs here, that's just part of poker and this hand actually makes a very reasonable triple barrel even though we have turned a pair. Firstly, we have equity which is a good thing on an A high board. Secondly we block 2 pairs. Thirdly, triple barrelling generally goes fantastically well.

      I've played a decent amount of heads up, and the line you have taken just ends up being sending your red line off a cliff.

      Side note, you should 3bet bigger in both hands.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 11:51 AM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by gregz41
      Points 1, 3 and 4 are valid reasons to be 3betting as a bluff. My issue is with 2. This hand is really far away from even a loose but still good flat range. Let's say that we 3bet something like AJo, KQo, A2-A5s, Q9s, K9s and 87s as bluffs. If you wanted more, you'd choose a lot of stuff before getting as far down as A3o. If you include everything all the way down to A3o, then you'll simply be 3bet bluffing way too much.

      I'm on board for getting in more bluffs, but think this is too much even with the BB sitting out.
      Don't you think that if OR is loose (~30/20 overall) then he probably has a good spot to open even wider here (maybe even more than 30%) despite me being aggro?
      If you think so, do you think this range would be too wide (or too unbalanced) for me to defend? (blue = 3bet, yellow = flat)
      Spoiler:

      I normally don't flat A2-A8s vs EP open but this spot looks different to me. Also he raised only 2x despite us being deep so this makes him look weak to me (haven't checked his sharkscope them AFAIR so I'm not doing this now since it makes no sense but I think his opening sizings aren't probably balanced).

      I'm not trying to prove that you're wrong etc., just want to learn as much as possible from more experienced players.

      Can agree with your opinion regarding the second hand, thanks again.
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by onehandatatime
      KJo flat in the SB is bad IMO, I'd much rather be 3 bet/folding this hand.

      OP, I like the line taken in both hands, if anything I think maybe the sizing of the 3 bet in hand 2 is a little big.
      Now I think gregz's view makes more sense than my actual line. Thanks for posting though.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 12:06 PM
      you'll be loosing too many times flatting with KJ out of the SB
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 12:16 PM
      I will always play heads up when BB is sitting out and I have good odds to call.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 12:19 PM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Marecki
      Don't you think that if OR is loose (~30/20 overall) then he probably has a good spot to open even wider here (maybe even more than 30%) despite me being aggro?
      If you think so, do you think this range would be too wide (or too unbalanced) for me to defend? (blue = 3bet, yellow = flat)
      Spoiler:

      I normally don't flat A2-A8s vs EP open but this spot looks different to me. Also he raised only 2x despite us being deep so this makes him look weak to me (haven't checked his sharkscope them AFAIR so I'm not doing this now since it makes no sense but I think his opening sizings aren't probably balanced).

      I'm not trying to prove that you're wrong etc., just want to learn as much as possible from more experienced players.

      Can agree with your opinion regarding the second hand, thanks again.

      Now I think gregz's view makes more sense than my actual line. Thanks for posting though.
      I like the approach you're taking, I just think it needs fine tuning. I dislike the offsuit Kx combos you're using here as well as the Ax, I think these are just too weak. I think something like:
      Flat:
      99-22, AdAs, AhAs, AsAc, AQs-A7s, K9s+, QTs+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s
      3bet:
      KK-TT, AdAh, AdAc, AhAc, A6s-A2s, K8s-K7s, Q9s, 97s, 86s, 76s, 65s, AQo-ATo, KJo+, QJo

      will work a lot better. This gives you nice board coverage and still has lots of bluffs.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 12:37 PM
      Good. Not sure if I really have to be perfectly balanced here like putting half of AA combos in flatting range (ofc would have to if I was playing vs a very good reg but probably not vs most low-midstakes players). Will try to work on it, thanks for your time.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-28-2016 , 06:56 PM
      Just fold hand 1, and hand 2 is played perfectly fine.
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote
      09-29-2016 , 01:39 AM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by furo
      How bad am I for folding both hands preflop? From 1(bad) to 10(bad. But there is still hope).
      As played 1),is ok. 2) I would not cbet cuz you block combos he would fold. Might double barrel if I cbet this since his peeling range should be Ax heavy so its a decent scarecard/gains us equity/blocker.
      standard to fold both hands pre youre right
      2 hands from Mini WCOOP ME with dead big blind in the pot Quote

            
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